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YEStalk Discussion Forums • View topic - Most Deserving Prog bands still not widely known

Most Deserving Prog bands still not widely known



Most Deserving Prog bands still not widely known

Postby Relayer » Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:02 am

Who are your favorite Prog bands, Past and Present, who, for whatever reason are still widely unknown and deserve better?
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:33 pm

Flower Kings - It's kind of wierd when you go see your favorite band at the moment and theres only 40 people there. They are WAY too good and don't get anywhere near the attention they should. Why somebody doesn't notice with as prolific as Roine Stolt is is beyond me. The man's unstoppable! In the last year or so, he's done the Transatlantic album, wrote for the Kaipa album, played on Hasse Brunissons album, and is now finishing up the new double Flower Kings CD. It seems as though Spocks Beard seem to be the leaders of this forefront of neo-prog bands, and I don't understand why FK are the much better band of the two.

Gentle Giant - It seems like the only progressive bands people seem to remember are ELP, Yes, Genesis, Crimson, Rush, and Floyd, and why Gentle Giant weren't that well known is beyond me. Yeah they have their really odd, dissonant, violently complex music but they have even more songs that are just catchy rock songs but progressive at the same time. Songs like "Advent Of Panurge" "Just The Same" "A Cry For Everyone" and "I've Lost My Head" should be classic rock radio staples, and even stuff from their AOR style sellout "Civilian" is still way better than, say Foreigner.

Reporter: Is it true that you don't listen to rock music at all?

Frank Zappa: No. I listen to Gentle Giant.

'Nuff said.

3. Anglagard - Really strange band. Really dark, with bucketloads of mellotron, and dualing guitars and flute. Reminds me a lot of what Genesis would have sounded like if they were more serious and possibly on drugs. <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> First album has nice swedish vocals and more "Consise" songs I guess, but the second album is just wild instrumentals that go all over the place. "Epilog" is probably one of the hardest things to listen to that I've heard in a while. Definately worth your time getting used to.

That's all I can remember for now.

Peace out

Eric
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Postby Dr_Yes » Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:57 pm

I'd plump for some of the lessor known UK neo-prog rock outfits that emerged in the early 80s around the time that Marillion were about. The best of the bunch IMO were Pallas - a band which hailed from Scotland and produced an amazing live album called Arrive Alive. Second place would go to Pendragon. I saw them live at a local college in 1983? and was among an audience of about 20 - sadly - five of whom were me and my mates laying out on the floor in front of the band soaking up cuts such as Alaska (superb) and The Black Knight.

The next honourable mention would go to IQ and Twelfth Night whose work I enjoyed less, but who played some really interesting stuff. of the more modern bands: I have a love hate thing with The Flower Kings; don't much like Spock's Beard (Spock's bored IMO); think Dream Theater are okay but sterile; and quite like Arena's The Visitor album.
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Postby KEVIN2112 » Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:59 pm

Eric said it best. The Flower Kings are the $hit! Roine Stolt is the best musician on the planet right now and I am just stunned that more people do not love this band. Sure, Spock's Beard is good, but TFK's destroy them in nearly every aspect. I think some are put off by the name, but The Flower Kings are the best band in the world right now(even better than Rush or Dream Theater at this point in time).
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Postby Dr_Yes » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>KEVIN2112 wrote:</b>
Eric said it best. The Flower Kings are the $hit! Roine Stolt is the best musician on the planet right now and I am just stunned that more people do not love this band. Sure, Spock's Beard is good, but TFK's destroy them in nearly every aspect. I think some are put off by the name, but The Flower Kings are the best band in the world right now(even better than Rush or Dream Theater at this point in time).
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Which is I guess why they command crowds of 40 people . . .
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Which is I guess why they command crowds of 40 people . . .
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Britney Spears regularly commands crowds of 20,000-50,000. Go ahead and tell me she's good, I dare you.
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Postby Relayer » Wed Aug 21, 2002 5:20 am

Eric is right, the size of the crowd no longer matters, the point is that there are bands with more integrtiy than sales, besides I remember a time when Yes filled stadiums, it doesent mean they are any less talented, it's just the machine made by a few conglumerate record companies now has a stranglehold on worldwide airplay and marketing, that is why we fight back with the internet and sites like this one.
What I wanted to start with this thread was to share discoveries of great Prog and widen awareness to great music.

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Postby Yaddict » Wed Aug 21, 2002 5:35 am

I fully understand why the Flower Kings are not popular: It has nothing to do with their musical abilities; unfortunately they are hopelessly out of fashion.

I too saw them on their US tour, at a converted bowling alley in Cambridge: The Middleeast. It’s a very grungy place, perfect for a punk band. We got there at 8pm, and thought the crowd was respectable, with a healthy mix of ages.

The California Trio opened, and they were pleasant, bordering on Muzak. They did a cover of Bohemian Rhapsody that made me feel I was inside an elevator. They also did a cover of Heart Of The Sunrise, that reassured me of how good Steve and Chris are. As the California Trio ended, all of the younger Berklee music student types bolted to the door, leaving behind all the 40 something die-hard progholes (as defined in another thread).

When the Flower Kings took the stage my first impression was that they had raided some disco queen’s closet. Sequel shirts, silver shinny pants, … where is the fashion police when you need it most? I know, it should only be about the music! But not these days. Image plays a big part of being popular or well known (which is what we are discussing), and a t-shirt and some jeans would do just fine. If you are going to be wearing fashion statements, as they were doing, then better make them fashionable.

Second, their stage presence is poor to say the least. Roine is a great musician, but does not seem very friendly. He seems like a geek, which is fine with me since I am one also, but he has zero rapport with the crowd. To make things worse, their second guitar/singer was obnoxious. He thought he was Roger Daltrey performing Tommy at a huge arena. His stage rock-star antics were so out of place it was embarrassing. There were no more than 40 over-weight middle-aged men there (including myself).

So where is the beef? The music?

At this point I had only heard Flower Power a couple of times. I have since bought Stardust. I have also bought the two Transatlantic studio albums. I like them. However, they are guilty of all the sins critics associate with progressive music: pompous and pretentious, long unwieldy compositions, silly lyrics, etc…

I think Roine is a very good musician. He is extremely prolific, both as a composer and as a performer. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your taste, he is a purist of “progressive” rock. There is a beauty to this approach, but it basically assumes that the genre is dead, and it needs to be preserved.

I think this is the tragedy of Neo-Prog bands. They like progressive music so much that they want to move only within the margins of the genre as laid down in the 70’s. This is the case of The Flower Kings. They really have their own sound, a mix of Genesis, Yes, Zappa, Camel, ELP, etc.., and it is as good as any of these bands. However, they sound extremely dated. As soon as they started playing, my friend, who knew nothing of them said: “They sound just like the music I was listening to during seventh grade.”

Perhaps there will be a day that Progressive music re-gains critical respect. There seems to be signs that the tide is turning in that direction. If this does happen, then The Flower Kings will get higher recognition as keepers of the flame. But until that day comes they will probably continue to be an anachronism only interesting to the connoisseurs of the genre: Eric, and a few other Progholes!
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Postby Dr_Yes » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>EricBliss12345 wrote:</b>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Which is I guess why they command crowds of 40 people . . .
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Britney Spears regularly commands crowds of 20,000-50,000. Go ahead and tell me she's good, I dare you.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Doh! Sorry to state the f'kin obvious but the Flower Kings were being compared with Rush and Dream Theater - who do command crowds considerably bigger than 40 unless I'm wrong - go ahead tell me I'm wrong, I dare you.<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby KEVIN2112 » Thu Aug 22, 2002 1:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Dr_Yes wrote:</b>
Doh! Sorry to state the f'kin obvious but the Flower Kings were being compared with Rush and Dream Theater - who do command crowds considerably bigger than 40 unless I'm wrong - go ahead tell me I'm wrong, I dare you.<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

To clarify what I said, I simply meant that I think The Flower Kings are making the best music right now. They have released 6 studio albums in the last 7 years and 4 of them are simply amazing and the other 2 are good as well. What other band has been as great as them over the last 7 years?
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Postby Dr_Yes » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:17 pm

Sorry to disagree KEVIN, but to clarify what you wrote, you did make that claim:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The Flower Kings are the $hit! Roine Stolt is the best musician on the planet right now ... The Flower Kings are the best band in the world right now(even better than Rush or Dream Theater at this point in time).
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That seems fairly unambiguous - doesn't it?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What other band has been as great as them over the last 7 years?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't know what other band has been great as you put it - or prolific - in churning out a lot of material in a short space of time. Cliff Richard springs to mind as someone who's always got an album out. Though how this somehow makes the Flower Kings the best is a bit of a reach of the imagination, surely? At the end of the day it was a pretty bold claim you made in comparing them with Rush and Dream Theater and one that sounded laughable in light of Eric's comment about them drawing such a pitifully small crowd seven years (I now find out) after having been on the music scene!!!

Now we could go round and round about whether it matters or doesn't matter about size of crowd - to this I'd say it probably doesn't matter an awful lot but it's ludicrous to say it's not one way of gauging a band's popularity. To then, as Relayer said, suggest crowd size is irrelevent and that it's all about intergrity is also quite amusing, as on this barometer I've played in some of the best bands in the world ever, judging by our average crowd size and our desire not to make pop music.

But we're straying off the topic and I am not going to trade arguments any more on this point because I think I've made it as clearly as I can. It would be nice, however, to agree on the fact that Prog is so underrated and so maligned. It's a shame that the early 80s mini revival was stopped in its tracks as it might have put paid to the prog is crap minicker in the UK, but it didn't happen.

On a more positive note I've received a nice email from the guys in Pallas who are still going strong and I hope to see them live in late 2002 (along with IQ in December).
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Postby geoff feakes » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:25 am

Cliff Richard springs to mind as someone who's always got an album out.

NOW WHERE DID YOU DIG CLIFF RICHARD FROM IN A THREAD ABOUT PROG ROCK BANDS??
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Postby Relayer » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:34 am

No doubt The Flowerkings should top this list, I have everything they have ever released short of the fan club CDs, and by the way I had the priviage of chating with Roine before a Transatlantic show in June of 99 and seemed very kind and and although he seemed to be recognized by only a few in the crowd he was more than happy to sign autographs, same with Pete Trewaves.
Which leads me to Transatlantic, some say this just a Neal Morse show, but I find this band fascinating and both studio discs wonderful, I hope the guys find time to keep this project alive.
I'm not going to bring up Spocks Beard, who I beleive everyone knows, but in case you don't, these guys are at the top of Prog coming out of the U.S. and have been for a while.
Another U.S. band that hasn't been given thier due are King's X, I can't say enough about this band , and would probably bore you if I
did, all I would ask is give them a listen, very melodic, smart prog.
Pendragons last disc Not of this World also fits into Prog but with a haunting melodic beauty that some find boring but I find mesmerizing and quite elegant.
Glass Hammers Chrnometree is another U.S bred Prog classic that you have most likly never heard, well worth the time checking out.
As for older Prog you should check out It Bites, mid-eighties early nineties smart commercial sounding with some killer harmonies as well as Rabinesque guitar, the fact that these guys never got to the topp of the heap still makes me wonder.This stuff fits perfectly with the YesWest sound.
These are are few I recommend, not everyone will like them, but some may.
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Postby KEVIN2112 » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Relayer wrote:</b>
Which leads me to Transatlantic, some say this just a Neal Morse show, but I find this band fascinating and both studio discs wonderful, I hope the guys find time to keep this project alive.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Excellent point. You can definitely hear the Neal Morse influence in Transatlantic's music, but their overall sound and song writing is so much better than that of Spock's Beard, it is ridiculous. I honestly believe that Transatlantic could become one of the greatest bands of all time if they devoted more time to it. However, given that Morse, Stolt and Portnoy are all used to "controlling" their main bands, so to speak, there is no way Transatlantic would last very long if they were a full-time band, rather than a side project.
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Postby Dr_Yes » Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Relayer wrote:</b>
As for older Prog you should check out It Bites, mid-eighties early nineties smart commercial sounding with some killer harmonies as well as Rabinesque guitar, the fact that these guys never got to the topp of the heap still makes me wonder.This stuff fits perfectly with the YesWest sound.
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<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Good call Relayer. "Eat Me In St. Louis" was a superb album. As a band, they should definitely have made it much higher up the tree than they did. Francis Dunnery's playing was quite Rabinesque as you say. he's still doing solo stuff, but I don't know what happened to the rest of the band.
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Postby Lyth » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:48 am

<img src=pix/icon_yes_mover.gif border=0 align=middle>

Apparently It Bites are going to release a double live disc and live DVD later this year from a Japanese show in 1987.

They are also opening an official website sometime this Autumn.

Not bad for a band who split about ten years ago.
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Postby Dr_Yes » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Lyth wrote:</b>
<img src=pix/icon_yes_mover.gif border=0 align=middle>

Apparently It Bites are going to release a double live disc and live DVD later this year from a Japanese show in 1987.

They are also opening an official website sometime this Autumn.

Not bad for a band who split about ten years ago.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Not bad at all....

Does this mean a reunion is imminent do you think, of is it just about making some money on their old name?
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:45 am

You hit the nail right on the head Yaddict.

I thought Roine was not only unfriendly but very geeky as well. I asked him to sign my poster and when he was done just kind of gave me this blank expression and said "Ok is that all you want from me?"

I guess so bud. Whatever then, leave.

He made me kind of uncomfortable, the rest of the band was real nice though, especially Hans and Zoltan. And their clothes do suck ass. They look retarded.

However, their studio albums are fantastic. And sure, they do unfortunately exhibit bloated prog music symptoms at times, but its ok with me. I think their albums are excellent enough to forgive a few pretensions. I think they would put on a better live show if they could get more people. They aren't in their element at all, if they actually had money, along with proper staging and sound, they would be way more successful and would come across way better live.

And by the way Dr. Yes I think they're better than Rush or Dream Theater. I have CD's by all these bands (and a lot of DT) and there's just no comparison, I think the Flower Kings are way better. Rush is a bit overrated, not untalented or necessarily bad, but not near as good as everybody makes them out to be. Dream Theater I love (going to see them in a week!) but can only take them in small doses. The Flower Kings are horribly underrated and will probably never even have moderate success, which I think is a horrible shame.

And I do have to chime in about Transatlantic. For the most part, awesome!
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Postby Relayer » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:22 am

Hey Eric, I found an old e-mail from Roine, He was answering a question about what amp setup he was using at Toads Place in New Haven Ct. with Transatlantic, and tinitus, which I have.

Hi ,

Yes, I used ,at least , one trademark 60 at Toads place (the other one was
Mike's wife's small peavey amp as the second Tech 21 was broke after one
gig ,a factory misstake I suppose )

I do have one Trademark 60 here in Sweden too ... plus their PSA -1
programmable preamp .....
It sounds fat as h-ll on my stereo setup with MosValve amp and two
4x12" marshall cabinets !!!!
I use different amps on dfferent tours as you can see ...but Tech 21's rule
in the studio !!!

Yes, they are GREAT !!! all leadguitars & all bass are from these amps
on our latest records
but recorded via a microphone ( a Neuman via the Avalon preaamp and
compressor on Space Revolver )
channel one is my favourite as it has a bit of Fender touch .....

Now I'm using Mesa boogie Rectifier amps and cabs also . They are
great as well.
Plus the new Yamaha stomp box ,amp simulator ( red one ... )


Best Roine .

PS . I have tinnitus as well ...... since 10 years ago ...but are getting
used to it ...and I'm careful .....but no earplugs ...!!!!


He seems pretty friendly to me, he sent this to me right after Space Revolver came out so the references are to equiptment he used up to that point I guess.
At the Transatlantic gig there were 2 bands from Connecticut opening,
Crucible and Paranoise, Roine watched both bands sets at the corner of the bar right next to my wife and I, we didn't chat much except to compliment these two bands, towards the end of the Paranoise set Neal walks up to the bar to talk to Roine, nods to my wife and myself, and delines to sign the same Transatlantic disc Roine had signed for me, hey, the guy was busy I guess, but he made me feel more uncomfotable than Roine.
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Postby hennie552001 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:48 pm

A lot about Flower Kings here... Let me put it this way. In the 70s prog bands (stupid really to put all those acts in to one label) were progressive. What does that mean? I think probably the common factor was trying to take rock music beyond it's excistising borders. The first and maybe greatest prog band was Beatles (Tomorrow Never Knows, Strawberry Fields, Walrus, etc.) Prog bands were trying out new things and took musicanship within a band to higher levels. The musical landscape to day is totally different. Most educated musicians love rock and it's not so impessing to hear good musicians in a rock band anymore. There are so many excellent performers out there. What's progressive today is probably a band like Jaga Jazzist who has a lot of rock in them, but is basically a hybrid between jazz and electronica. Massive applause from british press for their last album. New album Stix out now. Said to be even better. Luckily nobody has found a tag to put on them yet.
Neo prog is to me an attempt to recreate the prog bands of the 70s, and this is not progressive music at all. But who cares as long as it sounds great.

I have mentioned it earlier, but the album 'L' by Codley/Creme from 1978 is definately one of the masterpieces of prog. If you like Zappa you will probably love this. Nerd music. So clever it's scary. But inbetween all the smartness it really rocks. And if any band is able to recreate the track 'Foreign Accents' live I will eat my hat!
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Postby Dr_Yes » Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>EricBliss12345 wrote:</b>
And by the way Dr. Yes I think they're better than Rush or Dream Theater<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

YAWN. Sorry, I've tried once but I am not getting through and unlike me, you seem not to want to drop it. Seems from your equally audacious claim then then that there's you and KEVIN2112 now who think the Flower Kings are better than: the multi-million album selling, stadium tour sell-out Canadian trio which has been packing them in since the mid-70s and whose members have collectively and individually won numerous music awards and accolades; and the awesomely jaw-droppingly talented musicians that make up Dream Theater. Oh - not it's not just you, there's 38 other people that we know of too.

Come on if you're going to make such bold claims you're going to be picked up on it. KEVIN2112 made his claim and then tried to say he didn't. Hell, I like the Flower Kings and I think they are underrated. I think most prog. rock playing doesn't get the airplay or attention it deserves. But I think you're getting carried away with yourselves. If the Flower Kings really were THAT good, we'd have heard a lot more about them - after seven years in the profession - even excepting the difficulty in gaining exposure and the anti-prog bias prevalent in the music industry.
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Postby Relayer » Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:03 am

Hey Guys, the discussion is about the folks who haven't made it yet. Rush, Dream Theater, are great, both have a sound that is thier own, . I'm not sure where to draw the famous line but I say they've made it by miles both of them. thats just my opion and of course they're just like assholes, everybodies got one.
Oh Yeah I'd like to add Canada's Fm, from the early eighties as Proffet suggested to give them a listen a few weeks ago, The Disc Black Noise has rather unigue sound and some great lyrics. One memeber added elctric violin to Rush's Signal disc.
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>YAWN. Sorry, I've tried once but I am not getting through and unlike me, you seem not to want to drop it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Drop what? We're discussing something! <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Flower Kings are better than: the multi-million album selling, stadium tour sell-out Canadian trio which has been packing them in since the mid-70s and whose members have collectively and individually won numerous music awards and accolades <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Numbers of people at shows mean nothing to me. Lots of bands that suck regularly fill arenas and stadiums. Big deal. And good for Rush for winning music accolades. They're a good band and have some very solid musicians. However, I think their music is too one-sided (same for DT somewhat) and I lose interest with it quick. It's good music but there's not much variety, especially with Rush. Rush to me just sounds like a regular old rock band with longer songs and lots of time signature changes. To the average person they sound no different than a lot of 70's rock acts. But hey, people like them so they deserve all those music awards. Along with the other people that suck that have them as well, I guess.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> jaw-droppingly talented musicians that make up Dream Theater<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yeah so they've been through Berklee and Juliard. They can play damn fast. They more than likely know 10 times as much theory as anybody in the Flower Kings, Yes, and Genesis combined and I wish I could play even 1/4 as well as they can. Sadly, just because you know how to play 1,027 different scales at 800 beats per minute doesn't mean that you can write a great song. Dream Theater often write VERY cheesy 80's style ballads and make things complex for complexities sake. Although they have some solid material, they have a hell of a lot of songs that really suck too, and the suckiness factor takes the majority. Especially in the CD's before the last two albums, which are pretty good (not counting disc 2 of 6DOIT). I can appreciate what they're doing, but I pretty much listen to DT when I want to hear the beautiful noise of way-too-talented musicians jacking their instruments off. Which they are really great at sometimes, I might add. <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If the Flower Kings really were THAT good, we'd have heard a lot more about them <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oh really? When's the last thing you ever heard anything good about a newer progressive band on a respectable scale (not the internet) since the late 70's? Progressive rock and newer acts strongly influenced by the 70's stuff don't really get any kind of exsposure, so there's no way you can hear about them a lot, even if they are damn good.

It's also really silly to compare The Flower Kings to Rush and Dream Theater. Rush and Dream Theater have the obvious advantage popularity-wise because they are so rock oriented. I'd almost be more inclined to say Rush is a rock band and Dream Theater are a metal band, both with "progressive" tendancies. Flower Kings just seem to offer so much more variety because they give you equal doses of jazz, simple pop songs, quirky pop songs, metal, showtune-style music, the pleasure of getting to hear two different lead singers, and the big epic pieces.

Plus you have to remember that I'm a keyboard player. The Flower Kings (Tomas Bodin, really) have some of the most gorgeous, textured keyboard work I've ever heard commited to tape. I'm a huge fan of the sound of vintage keyboards, and the Flower Kings music is like an onslaught of chunky Hammond organ, mellotron (most times with two mellotron sounds at once), rhoades and wurly electric pianos, analog synthesizer, and piano, harpsichord, and clavinet too. Any of these sounds that you'd hear on any classic prog album the FLower Kings have and then some. Their keyboard sound was a huge selling point for me. Rush and DT are pretty much guitar-oriented bands, and although I can appreciate them I just don't relate to it as much. I like a lot of keyboards!

So there, no band is really better than the other, it's all a matter of taste. You're not right and I'm not right, but I still do think the FLower Kings are the better band of the previously mentioned two, for good enough reason. It's about the music, not the amount of people that buy the music or attend the shows (also remember that Rush and DT are on major labels so of course they have an obvious advantage when it comes to distribution and promotionan, two VERY important factors when it comes to financial success in the music industry, its extremely hard to buy the FLower Kings CD's in many stores) And the few fans that the Flower Kings do have appreciate them immensely and for obvious reasons. So you think Rush and DT are better. In my opinion, thats a bunch of bullshit. But whatever, that's why it's an opinion numbskull. <img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Peace out,

Eric
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Postby KEVIN2112 » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Dr_Yes wrote:</b>
Come on if you're going to make such bold claims you're going to be picked up on it. KEVIN2112 made his claim and then tried to say he didn't.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I never denied anything. I said that I thought the Flower Kings were better than Rush or Dream Theater. You misinterpreted that as me meaning that they are better all-time than Rush or DT, but I clarified it by saying that I think the Flower Kings are the best band in the world RIGHT NOW. Rush is still my all-time favorite band(look at my username!), but I am of the opinion that The Flower Kings are better at this point in time.
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Postby Yaddict » Tue Aug 27, 2002 12:12 am

<b>My money is on Sigur Ros and Porcupine Tree.</b>

Sigur Ros is probably on the verge of breaking it big. They were featured in the vanilla sky soundtrack and on the Angels of the Universe soundtrack. They also won some new artist award judged by US musicians. They are recording their new album and I bet we will hear a lot more from them.

I just saw Porcupine Tree at the Bowery Ballroom in NYC, and they were awesome. Very trippy and psychedelic, yet with a definite contemporary pop sensibility. I really don’t understand why they are not a bigger band. They were giving out a CD sampler at the end with three songs from their new album, In Absentia, and it sounds a bit heavier. They have obviously been hearing some Tool, which is fine with me. They just signed with Atlantic!

Now the question is, are these two groups progressive? Clearly they are not Neo-Prog, but they are progressive in my book.

BTW, a band from the 70’s that I think should have gotten a lot more recognition is <b>Il Rovescio Della Medaglia</b>. I used to own Contaminazione, a concept album about a guy who is, or thinks he is, the reincarnation of Bach. What an incredible album!
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Postby Dr_Yes » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>EricBliss12345 wrote:</b>

Drop what? We're discussing something! <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

But whatever, that's why it's an opinion numbskull. <img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Peace out,

Eric

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle>
Well done Eric. true to form! If in doubt, throw in an insult - albeit a thinly veiled sugar-coated one with a friendly icon attached - that will win the argument/discussion. Doh. So now I'm a numbskull and need to peace out - cheers, thanks - you've got a great way of making your case!

So to sum up: Rush loses your interest; Dream Theater play too well for you and are too good; lots of bands YOU think suck fill arenas, obvious perhaps but even though, as you are wont to say - everyone's got an opinion but mine's the only one that matters to me - at least they do fill them and for some reason; the average person thinks Rush sound 70s ?????; and whilst it's silly for me to compare them both in a lot of areas where they win hands down with The Flower Kings, it's totally fine with you for KEVIN to compare the Flower Kings with Rush and Dream Theater (meaning where we started at the beginning of this thread) - to show how good the Flower Kings are. Well, I guess you told me. I hope the irony is not lost on you here.

Now, thankfully, I think we are finally getting somewhere. When I said 'which is why they only attract 40 people' that is exactly the point I was making. You can't compare them. One is a big act, one is an even bigger act and the other is the Flower Kings. Thank you for finally 'getting' it.

Remember, I didn't make the claim. I just pointed out how ludicrous it was. And yes, I agree, not necessarily the best musicians make it to the top or command big crowds. But, and again crucially, Yes, Genesis, Floyd et al did partly because it was their time and partly because they were new and original (which is one of my actual criticisms of the Flower Kings - I don't think they are and I think they wear their influences too heavily - but hey my opinion stinks right and I am a numbskull!)
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Postby DTArtstar » Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:26 am

Dr. Yes...what the hell are you debating? All's they said were they thought that TFK were better than DT and Rush...it's called an opinion dude.


I also think TFK are better than DT and Rush...for the reasons stated here. Are you going to tell me I'm wrong for thinking that?

<hr>Download a few of my band's songs here: http://click.mp3.com/c/f_990/u_artists. ... _band.html
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Postby chromatic88 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 12:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Relayer wrote:</b>
Hey Guys, the discussion is about the folks who haven't made it yet. Rush, Dream Theater, are great, both have a sound that is thier own, . I'm not sure where to draw the famous line but I say they've made it by miles both of them. thats just my opion and of course they're just like assholes, everybodies got one.
Oh Yeah I'd like to add Canada's Fm, from the early eighties as Proffet suggested to give them a listen a few weeks ago, The Disc Black Noise has rather unigue sound and some great lyrics. One memeber added elctric violin to Rush's Signal disc.
Relayer....<img src=pix/icon_yes_new.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Silly Human, Silly Human Race...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Relayer:

Try FM's Surveillance, City of Fear and if you can find it "Direct to Disc" where they record two side long tracks live in the studio, direct to the disc.

FM was horribly underrated. The drummer, Martin Deller, is amazing. Nash the Slash, the original electric mandolin/violin player still records under his own name, His replacement, Ben Mink, was the guy who played on Losing It by Rush and also throughout Geddy Lee's solo album; he currently has been very very very successful as kd Lang's musical collaborator. Synthesist/Bassist Cameron Hawkins now works for CBC television, I believe.

The album Black Noise was a gold album in Canada but the rest didn't do as well, although they scored a few Canadian hits (such as the remake of the Yardbird's Shapes of Things, and a big single called She Gets What She Wants, which is from a more commercial album)

As far as other underrated prog bands that are still going and are definitely "progressive":

Miriodor (from Quebec)
Dave Herman's 5uu's
Thinking Plague

I also really dug La Torre Dell Alchimista from Italy at Nearfest (you can catch their set as well as Miriodor at www.nearfest.com ) even though their sound is a little derivative of ELP and the great Italian prog bands (Le Orme, Banco, PFM)

Peace

Alan Burant
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Postby chromatic88 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 12:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Yaddict wrote:</b>
<b>My money is on Sigur Ros and Porcupine Tree.</b>



<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll put my money on these two as well. Sigur Ros have been given endorsements from Thom Yorke that has and will continue to serve them well.

Porcupine Tree should be huge it they get the big label push that they deserve. I saw them live a couple of years ago and the concert was amazing. I have followed them religiously ever since, including Steve Wilson's No Man project (Returning Jesus CD is beautiful).

I have mentioned this before, but will do it again, but the keys player in PT is Richard Barbieri of the successful early-80's art-pop/new romantic group, Japan, that also featured David Sylvian and Mick Karn.

Al Burant
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Postby Dr_Yes » Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>DTArtstar wrote:</b>
Dr. Yes...what the hell are you debating? All's they said were they thought that TFK were better than DT and Rush...it's called an opinion dude.


I also think TFK are better than DT and Rush...for the reasons stated here. Are you going to tell me I'm wrong for thinking that?

<hr>Download a few of my band's songs here: http://click.mp3.com/c/f_990/u_artists. ... _band.html
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No of course you are not wrong for thinking that, say what you like. That's what I am trying to do - despite the numbskull statements. But by the same token surely I can express what I like - or is that not in the spirit of freedom of speech and democracy how it should work for you? It's a pretty dull world if we can't discuss a topic. My opinion is simply that if Kevin made a statement that TFK were better than Rush and Dream Theater, which I think is a pretty wild claim for the reasons given, bearing in mind the success - commercial, fan base and otherwise - of the two bands, then I should be able to point that out. Sorry, am I not allowed to do that? Seemingly not from your point of view. Am I not allowed to point out the fact that if they aren't attracting a big following, then maybe - just maybe, coz it seems to hurt with you guys - this band might not actually be the next best thing?

If someone counters with the line 'well I like them and that's all that matters', fine, great - all well and good - but surely I should also be allowed my right of free speech to disagree. I never told them so stop saying what they were saying, I realise they're just opinions (this is just a forum not a seminar to discuss world peace), and I am pleased that Eric agreed (in the end) it was ludicrous to compare them.

So calm down. I give up on this one purely because you're all so touchy about someone daring to criticise TFK. Fine, makes no odds to me.
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