Yestalk theology spillover #1



Yestalk theology spillover #1

Postby YEStalk Archives » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:41 am

theproffet
Member
(8/20/00 5:48:41 am)
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Sorry, but I missed out on the hottest thread this week because I had no idea that religion could be a topic here. I've always seen Yes's music as intensely spirtual, yet very diffuse in specifics. Right now I'm looking at the cover of Jon's "Song of Seven," with many different icons (a Budha, a UFO, a para-gliding angel, a take from the
Sestine Chapel, and photos of Damien, Deb, and Jon kissing "petite Jade", as well as one which obviously is meant to convey the idea of a couple engaged in carnal congress!)

I'm just trying to illustrate that there seem to be a lot of options open to serious fans of Yes, as there isn't to other groups. Two of the longest lasting people on this board are an athiest and a Christian, and I'm a Wiccan. I don't think that group like Zep, or Rush, could support the diverse opinions and viewpoints, and see them as relevant to a personal philosophy. There's nothing in Yes music that directly speaks to my vision of divinity, yet I still glean knowledge and understanding from it. And I am thrilled that Christians can too . . .
"When angry, count a hundred; when very angry, swear."--Twain


Poodeeo
Member
(8/20/00 10:25:25 am)
| Edit | Del Yestalk theology spillover #1
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Someday, maybe we can all go beyond names, labels and anything else that reinforces ideas of separation. The main theme I have always received from Jon is that form is secondary, and we are all one. All forms are illusion, and if we can just get past form, we realize that we see ourself in our brother.

heaven is a choice, not a place.

nothing real can be threatened.


jackalz
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(8/21/00 7:23:08 pm)
| Edit | Del The Big Generator
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To Whom It May Concern:
I?m kind of surprised that people are enjoying this, I wasn?t sure if it?s that new of a discussion or not. And I was going to offer to take the thread elsewhere (e-mail), if a majority thought it distasteful to bring religion/philosophy into a YesTalk forum.

rushaholic,
I?m not sure what was unclear about where I stand. Trying to keep it short, (yeah right) upon serious thought and prayer, I?m convinced God?s plan is so large and perfect that it includes all living creatures (including atheists, chimpanzees, that spider I just killed, each individual mosquito, dammit, and even Christians and Ramakrishna, and of course, all the universe) learning and being on their special Path. In regards, to the doctrines of any religion that demands there disciples believe their path is the only one, I wonder how small their perceived god is. But, and since, everyone is still on their special Path, they are still sacred. --that poor spider. If I wasn?t such a do nothing idiot, myself, I might get a big head. No, ?wait, I do have a big head. So, I don?t stand on my divinity, cuz that ain?t gonna happen. And just between you and me, the fickleness of Yesman90125 (Trevor Rabin and Ramakrishna fan) proves that Ramakrishna full of ?you already know??? sacredness. Ahhhhhhhhhh. It is almost like love.



Jesus chile
Member
(8/21/00 7:30:37 pm)
| Edit | Del Theological stuff, cont'd.
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OK, I'm catching up now. I just put a post on this topic on the Most And Least Favorite Yesmen topic, then noticed this one. Must be tired. If you're interested in my humble opinion, please refer.
wwjd


conall
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(8/22/00 12:03:05 am)
| Edit | Del I am a POS
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You're never supposed to discuss politics or religion, right? Well, I guess it must be okay here in this advertised thread.

I respect everyone's right to believe as they see fit. Thanks for doing likewise. I became a Christian a long time after I became a Yes fan(atic). My view now is that Jon is very spiritual-minded, and has a beautiful searching soul, but that he has not yet found Christ. I hope he does someday.

If that sounds arrogant, I'm sorry. But it is what I humbly believe--because it is what Christ said. You may have heard that saying, that Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or the Son of God. That's really it (there is no doubt about His place in history, and almost no doubt about the authenticity of scripture). If you read through the gospels (if you have to pick one, make it John), you may find that options one and two just don't seem possible.

Anyway, one of the things that Jesus said was that He was the ONLY way to the Father. He said it, not me!! And I find it interesting that no other religion makes that claim. That gives me more confidence, not less.

The other thing is that along sometime in my twenties, after years of trying to perfect (running, vegetarianism, yoga, meditation, reading, trying to be "nice"), I realized that I continually fell short. In fact, I didn't even come close!! In short, I realized that I was a POS--always was, and always would be (sorry PhilFan). The theological translation of POS is "sinner." But I prefer POS. Anyway, I didn't make this world, I just live in it. And IMO, the only way I can overcome my POS status is through someone outside of myself--someone or something external. I tried, and I failed--miserably. *I* can't do it.

So I pray that He would make me a better person, more loving, more kind, more pure, and a much better guitar player too!

So there you are. I feel that Christians have gotten such a bad rap--as being hateful and all that. And I find that as a rule, it is a bunch of crap. It's a bad rap. But that being said, Christians are not Christ (or Christlike, at least not yet, but we will be, someday!!). We're still struggling, just like everyone else.

Btw, speaking of "family values," which I do value, have you ever noticed that Steve Howe is truly a great family man, having stuck by his wife and children for these many years (since at least 1969)? I don't know Steve, so I don't know the details, but I would imagine that things are okay in their relationship. I think that that's really fantastic, and not too many other "rock stars" could say it.


rushaholic
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(8/22/00 2:20:56 pm)
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Re: I am a POS
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First of all, I love everyone here (not that way) because you are people! I may disagree with others here (and on countless other boards) but I hope you understand that I am doing my best to be considerate, that I try my best to be nice, and that I love Jesus first and foremost, more than my parents and even more than a fantastic collection of musicians. conall is right in that Jesus said that he was the only way. But it's not like he said only a few people can find him, the door is open. What surprises me is that out of everyone that claims there are multiple spiritual (and valid) paths, few of them put Christ as high as Buddha or whatever. Christ was the son of GOD! I guess they feel that way because he was "close-minded." BTW, if I may bring (it's a nasty word, watch out!) politics into this as well, I remember hearing that George W. Bush (candidate, not ex-pres) was trashed because he believed that Christ was the only way.

Hey, who is the 'leading' Christian of this board? Ed and Seryn seem to be the 'leading' people, and I thought I remembered hearing Seryn's beliefs before...
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


jackalz
Member
(8/22/00 9:49:55 pm)
| Edit | Del It is a good day to die
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Hallelujah,

I?m hopefully sure this is my last piece to what was almost a stimulating discussion.

The important soul that is me loves Jesus, too. I commune with Christ, devoted myself to sharing that Real Love. Yet, I am totally convinced that Jesus is not happy with most ?Christianity?, (as witnessed on these pages) as a sample of the Love he teaches, though he is aware that it?s just part of the slow learning process. However, he doesn?t condemn anyone for not being drawn to your ?Gospel? of, believe like me (I?ve got proof), or go to hell. ?or I?ve met Jesus, any takers, or are you chicken?

And God said, that every thing jackalz? says is the Word of God. Then I said, everything I say is the Word of God. So it is true! Do you believe me? Probably not... in that, you are wise.

Insane preacher is there reminded of a rhyme.
Love comes to you, and you follow?



yesman90125
Member
(8/22/00 9:55:56 pm)
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religion
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i really am enjoying this
even if only semi relevant to Yes,
other peoples opinions,views and experience,ultamately make us think more about ourselves what we're doing here where we're going and what we are all about.and i really value the opinions of those here. for the most part what we hear think and believe comes from others and is always influenced to some extent by other people. so with that in mind it is my belief that God works through other people(perhaps not solely). God infact seeing the paradox. gave us an answer to the riddle ; Jesus Christ. Jesus being the definative answer, the perfect human, God with us. God also being wise realized that not all of our brains or our backrounds or our cultures or our personality types were ready for Christ. so he gave us other teachers and profits with varying methods to get us closer to thinking in terms of God. that being said if you accept my premise that God acts through other people then lets carry it a step further and open up to the possibility that God just may be acting through us for the benefeit of our selves and each other.

i wanted to say that as a precurser to my comment about Ramakrishna rama krishna was a teacher who taught simply that there is validity in many religions. the central core of his teaching was to see God in all men (even if they dont see it them selves)
Ramakrishna never made any claims to be anything other than a man like the rest of us
and was never looking for deciples.
to be clear- I do not worship Rama krishna
i only think he has a valuble lesson to teach.
a lesson that has helped me get closer to God.

as far as Krishnamaruti goes some one implied that i was into him
actually i have read some of his work and it really doesn't interest me.

with respect to the Bhagavad Gita
and KRSNA

SRI LORD KRSNA (imo) an incarnation of God
the Gita continues to be the source of much of my spiritual inspiration.
this is the path God has set me on. for reasons i dont fully understand at every turn in my life when i need help or when i am lost KRSNA is there and I am found again my purpose is clear and I am at peace.
when I look into the eyes of another person I see only a part of God. when i see others in need I am compelled to help. I was not this way all my life infact just the opposite. But that has changed.
to me there is no difference between God or KRSNA
My Lord Jesus Christ is his only son who died for our sins
to save the world in Gods name and Christ is filled with Gods love and forgiveness. he is an incarnation of gods love.
KRSNA says in the Bhagavad Gita that he is incarnate in every generation guiding events toward the path of rightousness.
Jesus says in the new testement that he is with us till the end of time.
Jesus also says the things we do to the weakest and poorest of us we do to him.
and that those without sin(which of course is no one) are the only ones who should judge or condemn others.
i guess the bottom line is I trust God to take care of business for me you and everyone in his way, i dont need to understand it but to accept it .
that being said I further accept that God has his plan for the folks who for whatever reason worship differently than
Christians.
I am a Christian
in that I accept Jesus as my savior and that I believe he died for my sins and was reborn and lives now .
that just isnt all I believe.
i dont believe Jesus was the only incarnation of God.
God manifests him self in so many ways and in so many places in all our lifes we walk around somewhat blinded to it but it is possible for many people to recognize it.
we all percieve him to some extent. because God is everything including us .you may not have let God into you but you are in him. with God there is no passing of time he is allways in the present but to God our past present and future are all happening at once.
Jesus is an incarnation of Gods love but not the only incarnation of God.since God is all things God manifests himself as your friend, your beloved,your teacher and so on to infinity.but God puts more of himself into some souls
Jesus being the highest example of that.
i was involved with a guru of sorts(a deciple of Osho) and we worked on an exercise to open the "third eye" and for one brief momment i was able to open it . and i became terrified at the sheer magnitude of what i saw of course the fear clamped the eye shut almost as fast as it opened and I 've been afraid to try it again since.
the bottom line is that my search is a search of truth
and i certinly have and will continue to take some wrong turns.but ultimately my goal is to find God and since God is the only truth that is my final goal.fear and attachment to the things of this world are what I see as my stumbling blocks.my goal is to overcome them and its a slow process.
I dont pay much attention to anyone who says "my way is the only way" i prefer to think "your way is your way" its what works for you. we are all (as a society) arguing all the time about the path even though we all agree on the goal
TRUTH



AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


Poodeeo
Member
(8/22/00 10:36:44 pm)
| Edit | Del re: Yestalk theology spillover #1
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Wowse dowse, this is a hot thread. Thanks everyone, for sharing. Jesus, who he was, what he said and so on seems to be a central theme here. Here are a few of his words which I doubt many of you have seen:

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

This is how A COURSE IN MIRACLES begins. It makes a fundamental distinction between the real and the unreal; between knowledge and perception. Knowledge is truth, under one law, the law of love or God. Truth is unalterable, eternal and unambiguous. It can be unrecognized, but it cannot be changed. It applies to everything that God created, and only what he created is real. It is beyond learning because it is beyond time and process. It has no opposite; no beginning and no end. It merely is.

The world of perception, on the other hand, is the world of time, of change, of beginnings and endings. It is based on interpretations, not on facts. It is the world of birth and death, founded on the belief in scarcity, loss, separation and death. It is learned rather than given, selective in its perceptual emphases, unstable in its functioning, and inaccurate in its interpretations.

(sorry to cut this off, but I got to get some shut eye)


theproffet
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(8/23/00 1:13:23 pm)
| Edit | Del Hey, I didn't start this
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but I thought the whole topic of religion and/or spirituality should be on it's own topic. I hate getting lost when a topic evolves into something different, and people who've been away for awhile (hello Seryn? Ed?) should have a chance to chime in too. I hate to speak for other people, but I'm sure Seryn would identify herself as Christian, and Ed . . . I'm sure not gonna put any words in his mouth, but he's not down with organised religion, it's safe to say.

I am surprised by the number of Christians here, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I used to be quite predudiced towards Christians, stemming from the intolerance of the religious right in America. But I realized that they don't speak for everyone, and most of the Christians I actually meet are decent people.

I'm also surprised that not many atheiests or "secular humanists" haven't responded, but that may change. Or maybe they're just scared off . . .

Rusholic, isn't Rush a very non- (if not anti-) religious band? I'm not a big fan, but I always got that impression. I guess you surprised me too.

"Who says there's got to be a reason, who says there's go to be an answer?"


"When angry, count a hundred; when very angry, swear."--Twain


yesfan37
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(8/23/00 5:15:09 pm)
| Edit | Del Interesting
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I love this stuff!
I consider myself Christian but do not follow a church.
By this I mean I have found a lot of religions to twist and turn the bible to say what They want. I've read the bible and have turned to it many times through out my life BUT i never forget that GOD did not write it man did! Therefore it is very easy for man to interpret it to mean whatever a particular religion wants. I've found that alot of churches are filled with so many rules and regulations that the Spirit seems to get lost in it all. We are only human and like it or not we will sin. But we have the free will to choose and try and live a spiritual life or not.
I believe each individual person must open their own eyes, mind and heart and make their own peace with GOD.
I agree with the other post that said something to the effect that the whole world would never agree on one religion so each culture has different names and rituals But aren't we all reaching for the same goal?


theproffet
Member
(8/24/00 2:49:28 am)
| Edit | Del Well said, Thirty-seven!
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I hate to get mixed up in a potential argument about Christianity, but one of my points of dissention with Christians is interpretation of the Bible. In my admittedly limited research, I've found a lot of controversy concerning the flow of Jesus' words to the ears of His adherants. Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English . . . Are Christian hearing what he really said, or a bad and corrupted translation? King James ( the son of Mary Tudor, rival of Elizabeth I, daughter of Anne Boyelyn, just to tidy things up for Rick fans) can hardly be considered a fount of spiritual wisdom, so forgive me if I'm leery of Biblical quotations ( he added that mis-translation about not suffering a witch to live). I guess that while Christians and Christian thought can be wonderful, a scrict adherance to dogma, and ignoring compassion, scares the hell out of me. I'm not beyond listening to what Jesus has to say, but I'm not going to take anything second, or third hand. So I guess I'd have to say that Jesus is just all right with me (Sorry to quote the Doobie Brothers), but my favorite prayer is:

"Jesus, please spare me from your fanatics!"


"When angry, count a hundred; when very angry, swear."--Twain


conall
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(8/24/00 8:06:31 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Interesting
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Most Christians believe that God *inspired* the words that men wrote in the Bible. In effect, God wrote it. If you don't believe that, basically you may as well watch TV, because men wrote that too. What's the difference?


conall
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(8/24/00 8:20:58 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Well said, Thirty-seven!
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There is a lot of controversy about the flow of Jesus words to scripture. It's a matter of "is the glass half-full or half-empty." Most scholars think that the gospel of Mark is the earliest, written down in about 70 A.D. In one sense, that's a long time after Jesus walked the earth, and in another, it's not. As far as translation goes, it's not as bad as you might think. There are numerous ancient manuscripts available that scholars have studied intensely. These numerous transcripts corroborate each other very well. And there are more of them than any other ancient secular (e.g., Roman) work.

As for your prayer, I would save my breath. In Revelation 3:15-16, Jesus says, "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one ot the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

"Hot" translates to "fanatic." Fanatical about what? About love, of course. That's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. Love for God, and love for your neighbor. Jesus said that sums up what we are to do here. Everything else is sin. If someone is fanatical about sin, then yes, I agree with you. But those would not be Jesus's fanatics (though they may mistakenly call themselves such).


rushaholic
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(8/24/00 11:46:34 am)
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Jesus chile,
I read your post on the other thread and I agree with you on a number of things. However, I would have used different terminology, for instance when you talked about "slavery." That can turn people off, and it makes it seem like we are miserable people. I think we are meant to enjoy this life, as we keep God as our primary focus. God created the animals to be Adam's companions, and he created Eve later for the same purpose. He also gave them the garden so that they might have joy and happiness.

conall,
I agree that we need to love God and then other people. But just because something is not done in "love" doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong... When you listen to music, do you listen only to say that you love - whoever? Let me clarify, we should not stop loving God, or people. But I don't know if that means we have to ONLY... agh, I don't know how to say this, forget it.


yesfan37
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(8/24/00 5:37:47 pm)
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I agree with many things in the bible but if you start quoting it and shoving it down peoples throats I can guaranty thats the fastest way to turn people off. I believe everyone has to make their own Peace with GOD.
Offer people your ideas and thoughts on GOD/religion and let them make up their own minds (GOD given freewill)
I don't believe that you must go to church every Sunday to live a spiritual life. The churches are full of hypocrites who think if they go thru the motions they will receive GOD's blessing. You can't lie to GOD.


jackalz
Member
(8/24/00 8:57:21 pm)
| Edit | Del Oops
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Oh, that jackalz can take a crap as large and stinky as anybody.

I?m not quite sure why I let that get under my skin. I focused too much on the negative, not that it?s not there. Just that there are lots of reasons for this phenomenon of, my way is the only way, prevalent in so many religions. God blesses it and that?s good enough for me.

Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays; always doors to lock away your dreams."



rushaholic
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(8/24/00 10:37:13 pm)
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Re: Oops
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Yesfan37,
Every Christian is a hypocrite. We are all sinners, and if you say you aren't then you are calling God a liar. You can also argue that some sins are 'worse' than others, but every sin is equal in the eyes of God. It is important to accept those who are weak in faith, and not judge them. That is what Paul (I think it was Paul) said in Romans 14. We are not perfect, and therefore who are we to judge? Let us leave that to God who is perfect. As far as going to Church, I have had bad experiences with my church that have made me want to change churches. I know other people have too. I'd say that if church brings you down spiritually, and if you feel it is actually harming your relationship with God, then don't go. But I do believe that Church is not simply a place to go once a week to get a boost, or do your "good deed." It is a good opportunity to worship God, not just learn about him. Just IMHO.
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


yesman90125
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(8/25/00 5:02:54 pm)
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Re: Oops
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its interesting when talking about religion that the subject often ends up being "christianity right or wrong"
christian churches for example the catholic church certinly have, over the years been involved with a great deal of hipocracy and evil in many forms. the perception that many non christians seem to have is that it is a religion of judgementalism, hipocracy and totalitarian expansionism.
i can certinly see their point since as much evil has been performed in the name of christ as anything or any one else in history. there is of course the christian right wing in America that is percieved as pushing its will and view of morality on the rest of the nation in the form of political influence. while perhaps not being evil it is certinly overbearing. especially to those who dont agree with its stance on abortion etc... so the question is do these people actualy have anything to do with what Christ was trying to teach us. well in my opinion many of the fundamentalist christians miss the point of what Christ was all about. but , many do not, the other side of the coin is that christianity has also been involved in as much good and compassion as any other phenomenom in history. many kind and wonderfull things are infact done in the name of christ or inspired by christ. so there is a balence in christianity as much as there is a balence in anything else in this life. the problems often arise when people start to think that they are better thier ego gets in the way and they become consumed with thoughts like my way is the only way(or the best way). this is really the source of so many problems in the world examples of this are too numerous to mention and go from ego maniacs like hitler to run of the mill nuts like (insert your favorite t.v. evangelist here)jerry falwell .extremests in any walk of life tend to go overboard to some extent boardering on hipocracy or even crossing the line to insanity. we often underestimate the power that extremism has on the mind . christ talked about the zealots being blinded by there zeal. budha talked about overcoming the ego and krsna taught to detach oneself from the sense objects that shadow our vision from the truth. the best examples of observance of all these philosiphys in our century are ghandi and mother teresa regardless of our idividual belief systems one cant deny these folks lived lifes that were true to the princaples of faith, selflessnes, compassion and god conciesness. there are many other examples in all religious persuasions. Christ said a tree is known by it's fruit . in my search for truth its folks like ghandi who have inspired me by example to be better than i am by giving me a blueprint to follow based on jesus's statement ( a tree is known by its fruit ) i look to examples, not just globaly but in my everyday life of those trees that bare "good fruit".
with respect to interpetations of the bible-of course the bible was written by men and is not infalible however that doesn,t mean it not a valuble guide and a good source of inspiration for those inclined. certinly the new testement is more likely to be accurate than the torrah just because the torrah was being retold in a form similar to a fable for hundreds of years before people actually started writing it down and it went through many incarnations before it arrived in the form we see it today and of course it went through the same reinterputations that the new testement went through, king james etc. since the oldest avilable scriptures are still a hundred years or more after christs ascension . there are bound to have been changes for political reasons and mistakes in translations. however the general ideas still come accross powerfully.the same certinly could be said of the qur'an the gita or what ever other ancient text you chose to insert as your own.
again my search is for truth and one of the things i've tried to do is find the common themes in all texts and belief systems (theology is a bit of a hobby for me).
for me this is a bit like trial and error
a searcher shouldn't be afraid to make a mistake as long as the quest is sincere.
i would further reccommend some reading that may be beificial to seekers of truth
"The Story Of My Experiments With Truth" by M.K.Gandhi
to quote;
Where is there a wretch so wicked and lothesome as I?
I have forsaken my maker, so faithless have I been.
for it is an unbroken torture to me that I am still so far from him, who as I fully know, governs every breath of my life, and whose offspring I am.
I know that it is the evil passions within that keep me so far from him, and yet I cannot get away from them.
what I want to achive- what I have been striving and pining to achieve is self realization, to see God face to face, to attain salvation. to live and move and have my being in persuit of this goal. I have long believed that what is possible for one is possible for all.
I leave you with that as well as my utmost respect for you all and your views -I am gratefull for this forum not only to talk about music which i love but for the honest give and take between strangers who will most likely never meet one another face to face reinforcing my faith in people
and letting me know that while we dont always agree we are not alone.
AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


yesfan37
Member
(8/25/00 5:37:00 pm)
| Edit | Del Great stuff !
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I love hearing other peoples veiws and ideas about religion!

"our time is man made
our fear is man made
delusion man made
religion man made
Love is forever flowering endlessly through the universal garden "



rushaholic
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(8/25/00 10:26:56 pm)
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Re: Great stuff !
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I don't think religion is man made, nor do I think that even the ways of practicing it are not without divine guidance. If I thought it was man made, why would I believe in it?
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


theproffet
Member
(8/26/00 3:52:20 am)
| Edit | Del A tree IS known by its fruit!
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Thank you yesman, er, 90125, er, what do you call yourself for short? A very cogent analysis of perceptions, and I'm glad you took the time to put things into a reasonable view for us spiritual magpies. There is much to learn from many sources, and I'm not threatened by views that are Christian, so I hope no one minds my eclectic approach. As one example, believe or not, I'm actually a proponent of organised religion.

When I first became intrigued by Paganism, I learned that the Universalist-Unitarian Church (based on a multiplicity of beliefs) accepted Pagans as a viable spiritual belief, so I finally broke down to work inside the framework of a "church" ( real church building, congregation, stained glass inside, yews outside, kids in religous education, and all that). I'd say our group was a 1/3 Christian, 1/3 Pagan, and 1/3 agnostic/ atheist/ secular humaist blend. And lo and behold, it worked out really well. We weren't as interested in converting anyone as we were being good fruit, representing our tree! We all worked together wonderfully, but the somewhat unspoken rivalry encouraged a lot of good works ("Hey, if the Pagan group raised this much money and awareness for the homeless, maybe we could top them on AIDS home visits!). So yesfan, even though I'm not Chistian, I can't say that they aren't powerful centers for good in our communities.

But this leads to another disagreement with Christians (Sorry!). Ok, a hypothetical situation; let's suppose that I lead a life of Christ-like self denial, to foster and father orphans in Brazil. Abandoning my family, personal goals, comfort and wealth, I give others the opportunity to find Christ, and save lives.

And do not accept Jesus.

Do I burn in Hell along with Ghandi?

Since I don't belive in another heaven, just the one we work on here, I don't expect a reward (i.e.,eternal life)for my works. If Christians weren't rewarded this way, would their actions be the same? Would you follow Christ without heaven?

(And isn't "Perpetual Change" a criminally under-rated song?)


"Not another fucking elf." C.S. Lewis, muttering at an Inklings Oxford gathering, in response to an interminable J.R.R. Tolkien reading.


yesfan37
Member
(8/26/00 8:39:40 am)
| Edit | Del man made
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Rushaholic I dissagree aren't Catholic, Baptist, Methodist or any one of many other churches man made ?
They make all these regulations that are so negative don't do this and don't do that or you will burn in hell.
I know I'm a sinner and just hearing that everything I'm doing is going to cause me to burn in hell doesn't fill me with great hope.
Doesn't the bible say that Jesus didn't go to teach at the churches but where ever people would gather...along the river, in a field, on a hill side ?
GOD is so full of love! every day you wake up you have the choice to open your heart or not.
I've made some bad mistakes in my life and yet when I ask forgivness and ask for help I can feel the Spirit come into my life guiding me along the way.


yesfan37
Member
(8/26/00 8:44:46 am)
| Edit | Del Re: A tree IS known by its fruit!
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The Soul/Spirit is energy and energy never dies only changes. So if you believe in Heaven or reincarnation or alternate realities there is more to the story than this life. This life is a test of freewill. What will you choose Good/evil Light/dark Positve/negative ?


rushaholic
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(8/26/00 5:49:33 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: A tree IS known by its fruit!
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The practices may be man made in some part, but not the worship of Jesus. And the legalism is mainly Catholic propoganda, I'm protestant.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Poodeeo
Member
(8/28/00 12:12:50 pm)
| Edit | Del Food for thought
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Rushaholic, consider these ideas.

When one looks at the metaphor of the garden of eden, we have two creatures, created by God, in his image, and "perfect" in all ways. They had no physical needs, for they did not see themselves as different, nor different from God. So, at that time, if you will, there was no pain, suffering, ect. Was there religion? Of course not, there was no perception of "separateness". So, what happened? Well, in ACIM, Jesus refers to it as a "tiny mad idea, where we thought(think) that we are separate from God, and we forgot to laugh about it." But, since time is an illusion, this never really happened, only we think that it did. Hence, our ego mind was created, and FEAR WAS BORN into our minds. God did not create fear, suffering, separateness. We did, and we do, or have the choice not to, every second of our existence. God is love, and how could Love have an opposite? But, Jesus very clearly tells us that the earthly form of love is FORGIVENESS. So, religion is very much man made, as is every thing in the physical world. What God did not create does not exist, and everything other than love is illusion, therefore, does not exist. It's a projection of the ego mind, projection of our guilt about separation out into the world. Don't you see? The world is merely a projection of guilt. All you have to do is recognize what is of the ego mind, and what is the Voice of the Holy Spirit, and choose for the Holy Spirit. We are all one, one Sonship, and we all have to go Home together. Until then, we will return to this earth school over and over, until we learn how to forgive. Jesus is our brother, no more a Son of God than you or I, because there really is no "you or I". That's all he taught, that we are one, and that we too can do as he did. That's how you learn to love, you choose to see unity in all people, you forgive, rather than attack(ego). It's that simple, but it's not easy.

Namaste



yesfan37
Member
(8/28/00 5:24:13 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Food for thought
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WOW I Love it !


jackalz
Member
(8/28/00 7:31:48 pm)
| Edit | Del a mirror
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?Isn?t it ironic, don?t ya think?? --Ms. Morrissette

Yesman, Poodeeo, Proffett

When I was asking rushaholic and company to open up to all religions, I started feeling, isn?t that being kind of hypocritical, if I can?t accept their personal choice? Also, if you are going to try to help evolve their growth in this direction, you?re going to have to find biblical verification, not your own logic. For me, I found plenty of biblical and life experience verification, when God wanted me to take this path. Rushaholic appears to me to be open-minded and sincere in his choice to serve God the way God inspires him to serve. Right now, God asks that he serve this ?traditional? way. And God may continue to ask for this service in this manner for the rest of his life and beyond. Rushaholic, I believe, will change only if he feels God leads him, (but not some devil believers, (just kidding)). It?s not going to happen today, so deal with it. Tell him about the extra blessings one feels by accepting others and their choices, as they are, As It Is. ?or not, if you continue to be inspired to serve God (being Yourself) by sharing in the way you are.


We have the feathers from our birds, whatever you use, from whatever area, whatever bird is sacred to that tribe, you should never say, ?No, mine is better, or mine is more pretty.? That Grandfather made everything, it?s equal. Yours is this color, mine is this, but the power is identical. If we can first understand that. Longwalker from Toltec


Namaste

Yes, another fucking elf
Insane Preacher is there reminded of a rhyme.
Love comes to you, and you follow.



Jesus chile
Member
(8/28/00 7:37:40 pm)
| Edit | Del Please forgive the Christians
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First of all, I personally think this is great! I realize that it is (sort of) an us-against-them thing between the Christians and, uh, well, everybody else. Thing no. 1 that I would ask forgiveness for from, for lack of a better term, the other side is that this a standard Christian perception. (Does that sentence make sense?) Christians, whether because of training or "divine revelation", see humanity as a two-sided coin. Yer either in, or yer out! The reason for this is simple; the Christian has met, in some tangible way, Jesus. No, I haven't physically held his hand, but niether do I have any doubts that He is real and with me at this moment.

This brings me to forgiveness request no. 2. We do a lot of what we do out of fear. You brothers and sisters in Christ may disagree with my terminology, but I refer to Proverbs 1:7 (Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom). I have a personal relationship with someone who is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and completely without flaw. Wouldn't you be just a little bit afraid? Even if you understood that this person loved you? We Christians tend to bend over backwards to please this person, even if we're not entirely sure what that takes. I would agree that I should chill out and be a little less anal. (A LITTLE?)

And so, forgiveness request no. 3. Please forgive us our zeal in attempting to get you saved. You see, this is another expression of fear. We are afraid that you will continue to ignore Jesus, and not get to share in the eternal life we enjoy. Don't worry, we understand (most of us anyway) what you're going through in dealing with us. We all used to be non-Christians too. If you knew what we know (or should I say WHO we know) you'd be this way too. Of course, there are some of us undoubtably who are simply trying to re-affirm what we THINK to be true, but the rest of us just want to share a good thing and believe we understand the alternative better than you. Boy, do I need forgiveness for that!!!!!

As a final note, I would like to thank everybody for being so civil regarding so potentially volitile a subject. Somewhere in Psalms, King David writes that the laws of God are written on our hearts. At least, I seem to remember seeing this sentence. I just haven't been able to find it. Corrections are welcome. Like the comment about slavery. Maybe my choice of words was inappropriate, but all that we do as Christians is an attempt to serve God. I personally emphasize this because having a servant's heart like Christ does not come naturally to me, so I have to make a continual conscious effort. My references on this are Luke 17:10, Colossions 3:22, and 1Timothy 6:1.

Whew. That's enough for tonite, and thank you for your indulgence. Anyone wishing to flame me, look up my personal profile.

And, query? I know that Jon Anderson met the Divine Mother during the Big Generator sessions. Was he "experimenting" with Christianity during the Three Ships sessions?
wwjd


Poodeeo
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(8/28/00 11:11:28 pm)
| Edit | Del re: a mirror
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Basically, I was not expressing opinion, but fact, as stated by Jesus in ACIM. This Jesus does not differentiate a Jew from a Christian from a Hindu, etc. This Jesus was a man who lived in this world, but was not of it.

NOTHING REAL CAN BE THREATENED

The only real thing is love, the love of God, which is unconditional. Everything else is illusion, and therefore does not exist. (Quantum physics verifies this fact.)

NOTHING UNREAL EXISTS

Only the created, the Sonship(that's us) exists as an extension of God's love, and everything else is unreal, therefore, an illusion. (He's not talking about our bodies, or anything physical in appearance)

HERIN LIES THE PEACE OF GOD




theproffet
Member
(8/29/00 2:28:23 am)
| Edit | Del Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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After realizing that no one else here has ever mentioned the late, great Dutch progressive band Focus, I had to use the title of their LP side long opus as a reply ("Hocus Pocus," anyone?).

Poodeo, nothing is real. Therein lies an infinate array of possibilties. I'm also a fan of Plato and John Lennon. "Nothing to get hung about . . ."

Chile,( I don't believe I can refer to you as Jesus), I know that Christians want to save my soul, and I'm not upset about that, I think it's wonderful! But I will continue in believing that "We have heaven." Right here. It's just that we're all responsible for it. If I see a hungry person, I'd rather hand him a sandwich than a Bible. And I don't expect anything more out of it than thirty years of love, music, and learning about the universe. I do try to help others have the same.

I'm still trying to distill a concise statement of my admitadly progressive beliefs. It has something to do with Teilhard de Chardin, and Jon Anderson . . .


"Not another fucking elf." C.S. Lewis, muttering at an Inklings Oxford gathering, in response to an interminable J.R.R. Tolkien reading.


Poodeeo
Member
(8/29/00 12:34:48 pm)
| Edit | Del Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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proffet, I enjoy your wit and honesty. I think our views are basically parrallel. What's real?:

Jesus himself answers this question; He makes a fundamental distinction between the real and the unreal; between knowledge and perception. Knowledge is truth, under one law, the law of love or God. Truth is unalterable, eternal and unambiguous. It can be unrecognized, but it cannot be changed. It applies to everything that God created, and only what he created is real. It is beyond learning because it is beyond time and process. It has no opposite; no beginning and no end. It merely is.

The world of perception, on the other hand, is the world of time, of change, of beginnings and endings. It is based on interpretations, not on facts. It is the world of birth and death, founded on the belief in scarcity, loss, separation and death. It is learned rather than given, selective in its perceptual emphases, unstable in its functioning, and inaccurate in its interpretations.
From knowledge and perception respectively, two distinct thought systems arise which are opposite in every respect. In the realm of knowledge no thought exists apart from God, because God and his creation share one Will. The world of perception, however, is made by the belief in opposites and separate wills, in perpetual conflict with each other and with God. What perception sees and hears appears to be real because it permits into awareness only what conforms to the wishes of the perceiver. This leads to a world of illusions, a world which needs constant defense precisely because it is not real.
When you have been caught in the world of perception, you are caught in a dream. You cannot escape without help, because everything your senses show merely witness to the reality of the dream. That's why we have the gift of the Voice of the Holy Spirit, the Answer.

we have heaven





rushaholic
Member
(8/29/00 2:06:29 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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Everyone involved in this conversation is religious. We all have strong feelings about religion. None of us want to change our beliefs, which would make it very hard for one of us to change. Yet we all keep talking about our beliefs. Therefore, this conversation is doomed to last an eternity without moving an inch.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


yesfan37
Member
(8/29/00 5:49:56 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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God is One
though men call Him by different names,
and it is His Life that resides in each person.
"you know,(put your name here), God is free."


Tomfoolery
Member
(8/29/00 11:12:14 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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Rushaholic, on the contrary, this whole discussion/thread/topic IS moving, and it's moving ALL of us. It's moving us towards mutual understanding of EACH OTHER, and tolerance of EACH OTHER, because of the temperate nature of each post. There have been no flames, no "My religion/theology/spiritual beliefs are better than yours" posts, no heated arguments. This world is made up of many cultures, many political beliefs and many spiritual beliefs, and this whole thread has been EXTREMELY enjoyable to me because it enables me to understand how OTHERS believe a little better. That, in its essence, has helped me to become a more rounded person, and more able to relate to others who may (and probably do), in some respect, think differently than I. And, doesn't that, in effect, provide for better human relations and/or better interactivity amongst myself and those members of humanity that share this earth with me? I don't think I've read anything within this thread/topic that I've interpreted as trying to convert me to think towards changing my beliefs. On the contrary, I've seen a good, wholesome, sincere interest in others and what THEY believe in order to further meld the whole group here into a tightly knit membership of individuals.

My opinion, only.

Tom


Jesus chile
Member
(8/30/00 10:38:16 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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Yo, Tom! Amen, and a HO!
wwjd


jackalz
Member
(8/30/00 11:39:18 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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Yes, and we also learned that I am the smartest and wisest of everyone here. And when this thread is looked upon as The Newest Testament, I will be famous.

Can I get an Amen?

Don?t worry, I?ll thank all the little people, when I accept my reward.

NOTHING REAL CAN BE THREATENED


rushaholic
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(8/30/00 12:12:29 pm)
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jackalz,
I hope you're joking. Humble thyself- pride destroys.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Poodeeo
Member
(8/30/00 2:19:42 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Questions? Answers! Answers? Questions!
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Tomfoolery, I like your comments. One point: I was blessed to attend a Satsung(sp?) by a Hindu teacher, and he talked about the difference between tolerance vs. acceptance. Tolerance implies still seeing "separateness" in your brother, where as acceptance accknowledges unity.

we ahve heaven


yesfan37
Member
(8/30/00 5:29:06 pm)
| Edit | Del Great!
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so many different veiws!
I love hearing what other people, religions,cultures etc. have to say because I might not agree with everything someone says there might be one or more "practices" or rituals of another faith that will hit home for me and I feel free to intrpret it into my own beliefs.



"we can all find a way to resolve our differences
there's no way we can lose
when we all realize that there are no differences
there's no way we can lose"
open your eyes
YES


Poodeeo
Member
(8/31/00 12:40:54 pm)
| Edit | Del re: Great!
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Talk about synchronicity. I was listening to OYE yesterday morning, as I SSS'd, and heard those very lyrics, and thought about this thread.

I had not listened to OYE in 6+ months, and I must say, it's underrated. I think the mix is excellent, especially Chris and Steve. Credit to Billy.

we make our own heaven, or hell...it's a choice.


jackalz
Member
(8/31/00 3:12:26 pm)
| Edit | Del Other lyrics appropriate to thread/discussion
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I found new meaning with Homeworld and New Languages particularly with this thread in mind.

Every once in a while I NEED to hear that intro into New State of Mind. eeeerrrrrr, dah da-na, dah dah dah, da-da-na, etc. Rock me!


PapaJimH
Member
(8/31/00 4:50:01 pm)
| Edit | Del Moment of light...
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I keep checking in here every day and this thread is the only one with activity. Heavy stuff. Lets take a moment to reflect on all this heaviness...



Now we can be serious again.

PS: I'm only kidding!!!
"At the end of the day you'll be fine." - SB


jackalz
Member
(8/31/00 5:54:57 pm)
| Edit | Del 3 snappy comebacks
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I guess we got luke-warm and spewed out of God?s, I mean PapaJim?s icon?s mouth.


Except for my contribution, I have to agree. Rushaholic will back me up on that one.


What do you expect from fans of cheesey Yes music?



yesman90125
Member
(8/31/00 6:41:45 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Moment of light...
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recently I have fallen under the influence of some people who spend a great deal of time doing what we've been doing here talking about theology etc. comparing and contrasting beliefs. recently we've been talking about the conversions of many writers around the end of the victorian age especially G.K. Chesterton. this was a low water mark period for catholicism and spirituality in general(except in India). it was a time when, in Europe, people were beggining to put their faith in science and progress. Socialism, Marxism and the works of Nietzche(God is dead) were the order of the day. Folks in this day and age(in europe) were raised with contempt for christianity spirituality and catholicism. as these great minds matured and they continued to try to make the case against spirituality many were converted by their own ponderings and debates with one another; Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, Wilde(on his death bed), Belloc, Baring, Dawson, Watkin, Knox, and I believe Tolkien. my point is a journey of discovery very rarely ends where it started. Most of these great writers and thinkers of the time ended up being some of the greatest "christian" writers of all time. "Literary Converts" to use joseph Pearce's term. and it was through discourses and discussions like this one here that helped them evolve into something different from what they started out as. I make this point in response to some one saying we were not accomplishing anything with this discussion, while it may only be one more step on a lifelong journey it is still a step. we've heard some very well thought out and thought provoking statements here! I find my self thinking about things posted here during the day while working and driving around.
I was also thinking about the similarities between the end of the 19th century and the end of the 20th with respect to spirituality and the political environment. the loss of religion in my opinion opened doors to events leading up to WW1 and the rise of Naziism in the 30's. I am of the opinion we are seeing the early inklings of similar views in this century and may infact be repeating mistakes of the past. in that we especially in America dont have a sense of ourselves as spiritual beings. so wrapped up in progress and security and greed (egotism) that society as a whole is heading for the same mistakes.
AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


rushaholic
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(8/31/00 7:27:05 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Moment of light...
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jackalz,
What will I back you up on? (I'm not being a smart***, I really don't know what you mean)
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


theproffet
Member
(9/2/00 6:18:43 am)
| Edit | Del Fin de siecle, yesman?
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The similarities between the "Turn of the Centuries" are largley perception. The evil of this century (mass warefare, racial hatred, territoriality), has its roots in ancient religious differences.

Although the 20th century is barely over, I don't think our descendants will remember our errors--I believe that the ideas of Einstein and Ghandi will prevail over those of Hitler and Stalin. Peace will always defeat agression, and rational evidence supplants faith.

(I will finally apologize for my "cyber-signatur." C.S. Lewis, venting on the dottiest of English Oxford Dons since Carroll--I couldn't have invented that if I tried!)

"I will choose a path that's clear,

I will choose free will!"

Oh Rusholica, I've ignored your board for a long time, but now that I know Geddy is FINALLY going to release a solo album, I'll FINALLY take a long look.


"Not another fucking elf." C.S. Lewis, muttering at an Inklings Oxford gathering, in response to an interminable J.R.R. Tolkien reading.


conall
Member
(9/2/00 8:46:36 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Fin de siecle, yesman?
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"The evil of this century (mass warefare, racial hatred, territoriality), has its roots in ancient religious differences."

I disagree. Why does everyone always say this? To me it is obvious that the cause is much more fundamental than the window dressing of "religious differences." And the evil of this century is no different than the evil of any other century, past, present, or future. The only difference is the technology and strategies of war.

The heart of man is always the same--full of hatred and selfishness. Always has been, always will be (notwithstanding naive utopian visions of a "new age"). So in short, I would rewrite what you said to "The evil of this century has its roots in evil."





jackalz
Member
(9/2/00 10:05:52 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Re: Moment of light...
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Rushaholic,
Sorry about the lack of description to my cryptic post. Essentially, these were three snappy comebacks to PapaJimH?s icon indicating, through a kidding manner, that maybe the thread was too serious and long, therefore boring. Joining in that sense of humor, firstly, I referred to someone?s reference of Revelations, the ?spewing? quote to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans, (bodily functions also part of the dry humor that I live with). And thirdly, kiddingly, I refer to Yes music, (and St. Jon?s cheesey lyrics) (that I listen to, love and live by daily(at least, my interpretation of them)) as a catalyst for cheesey religious, philosophical, and relevant discussion.
Then, the part that refers to you, I was saying tha-ha-ha-ha-at, except for my contributions to the thread, all you?alls comments WERE too serious and long, therefore boring. This in reference to my bold, tongue-in-cheek, previous comment that I am the smartest and wisest, (and now, most humorous, except for you, rushaholic). That comment was expecially funny after the serious wisdom and humbleness that I was accepting of your close-minded (kidding, (on three levels)) Christian beliefs. Then referring to you, because you were more concerned that I wasn?t being proud, (instead of seeing the humor). Apparently, no one else appreciated the ?humor? either, (or said so anyway, (which makes me want to cry, (waaaaaaa, (sniff, (grrrrrrrr!)))))(gr?).
Does that make things clearer? ?there?s no need to comment on this. This was a joke question, because of the obvious and continued lack of clarity in this reply, (unless you see it). ?We will not tender our song clearer, ?til we sail?

?My story is not a pleasant one; it is neither sweet nor harmonious, as invented stories are; it has the taste of nonsense and chaos, of madness and dreams?like the lives of all men who stop deceiving themselves.? --a quote by one of my top ten authors. Can you guess which devil that would be? (maybe put it in another thread, we wouldn?t want any confusion in this one) lol



rushaholic
Member
(9/2/00 10:08:42 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Fin de siecle, yesman?
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I suddenly remember reading "The Prince" for AP European History.

And I disagree somewhat with the religious causes wars etc. It is mostly the misunderstanding of one's own religion, not the contempt for another. Look at the Nazis for instance. They called themselves Christians, yet slaughtered countless Jews. They claimed their race to be the best. Well I've got news for you stupid Nazis, JESUS WAS A JEW!!!
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


conall
Member
(9/2/00 10:18:38 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Fin de siecle, yesman?
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To expand, the nazis did not consider themselves Christians. They considered themselves simply "racially superior"--whatever that means. I think it means they were atheists. They murdered Dietrich Bonhoeffer and other true Christians, after all. No, that was not about religion, though for some reason (racial?!) they singled out the Jews for the worst of their hate.

Help me out. When I search the memory banks for wars that were truly religious based I have to go back to the Crusades (those misguided Catholics being manipulated by a corrupt pope), or perhaps to the Iran-Iraq war. I believe everything else has been based on the pure hunger for **power** or **wealth** by selfish human trash--like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Milosivic, present-day Sudan, etc., etc., etc.

Like you all, I love John Lennon and celebrate his songwriting genius. But he had it wrong about religion. He should have said, "And no evil too..." I'm all for that!

All you need is love.
YEStalk Archives

Veteran Member
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: .

Postby YEStalk Archives » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:42 am

rushaholic
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(9/3/00 9:10:55 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Fin de siecle, yesman?
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I thought I remember some Nazis (not all) saying they were Christians, and even that what they were doing was for the glory of God. Maybe not... But the same type of thing has happened before, like with the KKK.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


rushaholic
Member
(9/3/00 9:12:18 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Fin de siecle, yesman?
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I think one of the reasons the Nazis seemed to hate Jews the most is because there were a lot of Jews in Germany, and they wanted Germany most of all to be 'pure'.
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


PapaJimH
Member
(9/3/00 11:16:54 am)
| Edit | Del Guess Stop Oh...
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Nazi's suck.
"At the end of the day it's what you DO not what you say..." - Spock's Beard


rushaholic
Member
(9/3/00 4:47:14 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Guess Stop Oh...
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Yes, Nazis suck.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Poodeeo
Member
(9/3/00 11:16:09 pm)
| Edit | Del Killing by God, and for God.
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"I thought I remember some Nazis (not all) saying they were Christians, and
even that what they were doing was for the glory of God. Maybe not... But the
same type of thing has happened before, like with the KKK. "

Just open up the Old Testament and you'll find a God with a lot of wrath and vengence. Lot's of killing and fully justified, right?

we have heaven, it's not a place in the sky.


rushaholic
Member
(9/4/00 10:20:51 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Killing by God, and for God.
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Well, I'm not a Jew, so the Old Testament does not concern me as much as the New. The whole point of Jesus coming was to forgive us for what we did wrong. Jesus's coming means that God forgives us and he will not unleash his wrath in the same way. So, I'm sorry Poodeo, but you are misinformed in this case.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


jackalz
Member
(9/4/00 11:16:12 am)
| Edit | Del I don't know, I'm just speculating, Lord.
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Having never started a war, at least that I remember, I can only begin to speculate what people or beliefs would start a war. But, it probably seems like the right thing to do, at the time. Like in the lyrics of Gates of Delirium, it?s all justified, because it?s THEIR fault. So, maybe it?s self-righteousness that starts wars. So I guess that?s another way to say evil starts war. Well, that would be a dualist way of looking at it. Of course, I try to be a monist, One God (though I forget often enough). Therefore war is as much God as love. War is a complicated process, not simple, and not avoided, when time/reality/God endorses it. War is definitely not avoided by blaming the Nazi?s, but war is also not avoided by doing nothing. So how do we break this ancient cycle? --or is war absolutely something to be avoided, since it is unavoidable? Enjoy the peace while it exists, appreciate it, but this time will pass.

And... the Book of Revelations is not all about forgiveness. Somehow that got into the New Testament. So Jesus overcomes all this temptation to become the Lamb of God, then given the chance, opens the book with seven seals? That?s not war? Hmmmmm. Oh, but He is justified, because it?s THEIR fault, they didn?t believe His Story, so it?s not war.



rushaholic
Member
(9/4/00 4:56:16 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: I don't know, I'm just speculating, Lord.
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Just to add something, I am a Christian and I think the Crusades were horrible, and against Christ's doctrine.
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Poodeeo
Member
(9/5/00 12:38:23 pm)
| Edit | Del Congrats!
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Well, I knew this topic would end up with the most posts. No surprise, since religion is so personal to each one of us, as it should be, a personal experience with the Transcendant.

we make our own heaven


Golden Void
Member
(9/5/00 2:35:35 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: I don't know, I'm just speculating, Lord.
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jackalz: wars aren't about religion or beliefs. Wars are about land, money, power, etc. (Those are all the same thing, when you get down to it.) Religion is used in war as a means of motivating the masses that do the fighting and dying. I know of no exceptions to this, personally, though there are exceptions to everything. But all the modern day "religious" conflicts I know of, aren't.

Northern Ireland is about conquest of part of Ireland by brits and scots. They happen to have a different religion, so that's the rallying cry. The mideast is likewise based on land, and culture clash. The Arab feudal system was disrupted by jews moving in, buying crappy land from the arabs, and reclaiming it, meanwhile spreading ideas that the arab lords did not like their peasants thinking about. But religion could be used to motivate those same peasants to fight.

War is as un-muslim as it is un-christian. And war against jews and christians is especially un-muslim, since Islam recognizes that both worship the same god, and revere them as brothers who've simply not yet recognized Mohammed, but are at least on the right road.

More people have died in the name of religions that preach peace than for any other cause, and yet those causes aren't the reason they were sent out to fight. That was someone else's greed. Religion is the reason they're given, but not the reason the war happened, nor is it the goal they're fighting for. When the church wants to win converts, they send missionaries, not soldiers. You might consider that a cultural war of sorts, but it generally doesn't include the slaughter of heretics (though the Aztecs would point out there are exceptions to this as well).


yesman90125
Member
(9/5/00 5:34:55 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: I don't know, I'm just speculating, Lord.
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christianity should be about christ and god
the same should be true of islam and ....(insert yours here)
the problem is like the previous post says religion is twisted to motivate the masses to war or "anti(insert your belief here)"
which to me brings us back to ego(greed jeolousy envy etc)
it never ends up being what the particular religious doctrine is really about .
often we end up with predjudices against a religion based on the evil performed in the name of that religion even though the practices are contrary to the doctrine
kinda ironic really.

i had a long post relating to the whole nazi loss of spirituallity theme but somehow it never showed up.
hmmm, ever have that happen?

as a kid growing up listening to Yes I was very convinced that they were sun worshippers that chanted to the sun.(lol)


bottom line for me really is God is God no matter what label we stupid humans try to stick on him.
it's almost like...............................love?

AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


rushaholic
Member
(9/5/00 5:56:27 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: I don't know, I'm just speculating, Lord.
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Good points Goldenvoid and yesman90125!
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"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


jackalz
Member
(9/5/00 8:38:09 pm)
| Edit | Del Mr. or Ms. Void
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Golden Void,

First of all, you wanted to address a previous contributor to this discussion, I wasn?t the one indicating that war is about religion. However, your statement that wars are about land, money, power, all the same thing, etc, is enlightening (in that it hasn?t been covered in this discussion too much), but simplistic, IMO. I?m convinced that equation of war is much more complicated than even you (being the Golden Void) or I can fathom, since it involves thousands, if not millions, of egos: issues of their security,(which is part of that "same thing" you mention) and pursuits of happiness, misunderstandings due to stress, and on and on. Sure you could try to boil it down to whatever, in order to try to understand it, but I think we lose the any chance of seeing the truth of the total picture when you or I do that.

If you want to respond to some of my speculations from that post; Is God all things, hence One God, or is God separate from the Devil, or both? And doesn?t it seem odd that Jesus, the Master of forgiving, would even consider opening the book of the seven seals, as alluded to in Revelations? Or, from a previous post, I am the smartest, wisest (wise-assed), and most humorous of everyone here. Nobody seems to disagree.

But, perhaps the most important thing to remember is that this is YesTalk, so dammit, always have a reference to something Yes. And preferably, have that reference in tune with the thoughts you are trying to bring to the circle.

Still we go on from day to day knowing what could be true, wish I knew.
Open your eyes and discover, you?re not the only one.

Enjoy the peace while it exists, appreciate it, but this time will pass. Please feel welcome to express yourself, here, anytime, with or without silly Yes rules.
Having never started a war, at least that I remember........I kill myself.


Golden Void
Member
(9/5/00 11:20:02 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Mr. or Ms. Void
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jackalz: sorry, I came in late. I didn't mean to offend.


Poodeeo
Member
(9/6/00 8:37:25 am)
| Edit | Del Re: WAR
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Jesus tells us very clearly that all perceived problems(there are no problems, really) result from our belief in separation from God, and therefore ourselves. As such, our ego mind functions to destroy. The whole world results from this belief. God's love is unconditional, and equal for all. As long as we believe in the illusion, we try to kill each other, only to kill ourselves. Unfortunately, what we are trying to destroy is an illusion, that of separation.

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists


yesfan37
Member
(9/6/00 5:34:48 pm)
| Edit | Del Is there ?
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Is there really a place as hell? As a friend of mine asked me a long time ago and every so often I still think about it . Is there a hell or after you pass onto the next life you relalize there is a God and you have chosen not to follow God's path and are then separated from God's Love and That is your hell? You find out that this life really is a test and you willing took the Dark road instead of the Light and now you are separated from God. Would that be hell?
and another thing if its the Father Son and Holy Spirit where does Mother Earth fit in ???


jackalz
Member
(9/6/00 6:44:01 pm)
| Edit | Del Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yesfan37,
I guess time will tell, if there?s a Hell. Mostly, agree that we make our own heaven or hell. As to a final Heaven or Hell, I?ve decided for myself that it doesn?t matter, but I will live my life as if the Kingdom of Heaven is now in the Love Center of the Universe, each one of us.

Golden Void,
Yours is no Disgrace. Again, please feel welcome to contribute. If you are put off by my or any criticism, just remember this is internet chit-chat. I, for the most part, am only writing to change my own world, not the world of others. In that YesTalk is a powerful tool. If say, rushaholic or you, disagree, enough to use your energy to bring it to my attention, then, in my own space (at home) I can cross-examine my beliefs, thought processes and feelings. The real plus of YesTalk for me is due to that I am a reclusive personality. Since I don?t converse real well, face to face, writing is my preferred way to communicate. Talking never gives me enough time to compose my thoughts and I never feel that I get my meaning, my heart?s song heard. Now it gets heard, yet, still not completely understood, because still I haven?t learned to put down my thoughts coherently. I am constantly changing as my moods of sarcasm and seriousness, divinity and blasphemy interact. And don?t forget that Yes quote.

All,
Namaste, Peace, and a golden void to you


Ascend and create, ascend and create, ascend and create ascension ?Mind Drive, Keys to Ascension 2
And?We go round and round and round and round until we pick it up again ?Rejoice, Tormato



yesman90125
Member
(9/6/00 9:33:49 pm)
| Edit | Del
a little story about me
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the point jackalz makes about this beaing a personal search (with a little help from our yesfriends) is a good one, I feel very much the same.
a few years ago my mother died
it was the first time i had to confront death on a personall level. she had cancer and knew she was dying for a year or so. she died at home with familly around her and I was with her for her last moments. this made me really start thinking about what was eventually going to happen to me (to all of us). and to be honest I was terrified. i had been talking to the minister who had been working with my mom to help ease her own fears (we were not a very religious family). the minister was allways cheerfull and was somewhat consolling but nothing he said really helped me with the deep gut wrenching fear that i had for my mom and for myself. i had my guitar and my music to sort of take my mind off things a little but even my old faithfull music was little consolation for the horror that I was confronting. well my mom passed away and i just felt empty.
a couple weeks later a reletive sent me Autobiography Of A Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda i didnt rally go for that kind of thing but I recognized it as the book that inspired Tales From Topographic Oceans. so I started reading it and I was overwhellmed at the way it touched my heart. not only did this philosiphy ring true instantly to me but it began to calm my fear. I read through it a few times and took the teachings to heart. i began to have a hunger for more . so , I picked up a king james bible, the qur'an, the bhagavad gita, Gandhis' autobiography, oshos' book of secrets, and a ton of books about hindu and eastern philosiphy and budhism. so as a way i guess to help console myself at my loss and to try to figure out whats going to happen to me i continued to consume every spiritual idea i could find. I even went to a speaking engagement of the dalai llama and met him! wow what a kind man. some of these ideas hit home and some didn't. my job takes me into most of the churches and temples in my area and I know many priests ministers raabis etc. and I use every chance I can to have the kinds of discussions we are having here. i was an agnostic i guess for many years. but not anymore . what I have found is that there seem to be more similarities in the various doctrines than differences. but the main theme of all seems to echoed in the last few posts. relating to our seperation from god and the illusion of this world.this is fundemental in the teachings of Yogananda. so this is my quest to find God I still haven't come close but what I have found is if you put certin practices, like karma yoga and Christs do unto others and many others, to the test so far they have played out as truth . so I mentioned gandhi a few posts back because I patterned my search after his " a search for truth" i am beggining to believe that that truth is obtainable for me to see god and to be no longer seperate from the true reality. I am sorry if I seem a little dogmatic in past posts but this is a subject that hits so close to home in what is going on in my life right now that I revel in any chance to talk about it .I've come a long way in a short time so another truth seems to bearing out . search and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. I must tell you that for a long time especially as a child i was a very angy and violent person.
putting the teachings of many spiritual masters into practice has taken a huge weight off of my heart and helped to remove my fears little by little. in addition to helping me with my grief. Jon Anderson is a guide of sorts to me in that he too seems to be on the same search albeit many years ahead of me. its reflected in all of his lyrics, as if he is saying to other searching souls I know what you are going through. it wasnt until the last few years that i started really listening to what he was saying for so long it was just great music, great playing, well writen poetry.
i was allways so confused at the way people treat each other the gangs the killing the .....etc. thank God for "That That Is" what a fantastic song , what a way to put it into perspective as I grow in spiritual knowlage jon is allways ready to take me to the next step of understanding> look upon this life as just a picture you are painting ........ well i rambled way too long as usual
much love to you all and thanks for all your wonderfull insight
peace
AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


conall
Member
(9/6/00 11:13:13 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: WAR
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Jesus tells us no such thing. He tells us (if you believe him) that we *are* separated from God--isn't it obvious?! We are separated by a very real thing called sin. You see God is holy, holy, holy. He is pure light, pure love, pure justice, pure righteousness. We are none of those things, in fact, in *reality*. Just ask your spouse, your kid, or your friend the next time you "lose it," as we all do.

So I'm sorry, but if you want to believe that there are no real problems here, or that we are not sepatated from God (conversely, that we could stand face-to-face with God right now, in our present filthy condition), that's fine. But please don't bring precious Jesus into it because he died his horrible death for one reason: to bring all believers out of separation and into union with him (God). What you say nullifies his purpose here on Earth.

I hate to say these words because I know they sound offensive and belligerant to you, but I don't mean it that way. I love you Poodeeo, I hope you know that. We both love the majesty of Yes. But I am a Christian, and I just feel that you don't quite understand what's going on with it.

You see I am a POS, and so are you (sorry)!! We are *all* filthy rags. As RC Sproul says, there is one thing you should never pray to God for: Justice. Because it would not (and could not) be pretty. Instead, what we should pray for is mercy.

This is the crux of Christianity. We bow before God in the realization that we are, by our very nature, dirt--criminals pleading guilty before a holy God. Our only hope is mercy, which thankfully God provides--while simultaneously satisfying his requirement of justice--through the maker of the universe, Jesus, the Logos (John 1:1).



theproffet
Member
(9/7/00 2:56:22 am)
| Edit | Del Does anyone else know that Rabin is Jewish?
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I was searching the Forgotten Yesterdays page, and found a recent article. He learned classical music in an Orthodox shul! So now if you dislike '80's Yes, it's because you're anti-Semetic!

But seriously folks, I'd say that Golden Void has a convincing perspective on war, and the influence ( or lack of it) by religion. But I would clarify my earlier statement: Large scale warfare, ala WWI, WWII, has to have economic and historical roots, as well as religion. But the pogroms against the Jews in Russia, Witch hysteria in England and America in the 17th century, and fervent anti-Catholicism since Henry VIII, were led by Christians (please don't bring up what they've done in the Americas!) I think that Monotheism is a very dangerous concept, as is the concept of divinity as transcendant, rather than immanent. To me, I can't leave Heaven up to one God: it's my responsibility as well. I could never ask Jesus to give his life for my sins--I believe that's MY problem. If things suck in this world, do something, help other people, and don't expect anything from it, except what you came in with. I know many serious Christians; they frequently lead me in the arena of "good works." I guess I'd like to be more like Christ, rather than just follow.

90125, my mother has terminal cancer, and I frequently stay with her for a week or so every month, so that explains my absenses. And if I'm not with my mom, I'm with my nephews so my sisters can visit. My social life is therefore so-so anymore, but as long as I have access to a terminal, and a Discman, good headphones, and Yesyears, I have Heaven for a few minutes.

But I have no idea how to respond to jackyzl yet . . .


"You call me a fool, you say it's a crazy scheme--this one's for real, I already bought the dream."


jackalz
Member
(9/7/00 12:10:53 pm)
| Edit | Del elephant POS
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When confronted with this attitude conall brings, I?m always eventually reminded of the story of the several blind children meeting an elephant for the first time. One who feels the leg, and says this is what the elephant is like. Another feels the trunk, and says, no, this is what the elephant is like. Another happens by the tail and says, no, this is what the elephant is like. Then either they refuse to believe the others stubbornly holding on to their cherished reality, or they open their mind enough to walk over to the other perspective, to hear and feel what one of the others were indicating. Eventually, one of them does take this leap of faith, and experiences the expanded truth. But instead of realizing both perspectives are true, he renounces the old to believe the new. But after a time, and because of his open mind, he hears that there is another perspective, he investigates and finds more truth. Then he realizes all these perspectives might be true. But it didn?t make any sense, how could all of it be true?




rushaholic
Member
(9/7/00 7:23:02 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: elephant POS
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Someone asked about hell and Mother Earth, here are my thoughts:

Hell: Hell is out of the Bible, but the Bible does not specifically say if it is really a place of torture, just seperation from God, or just the "second death" and that's it for you. Well, it kind of says all of these things... No matter what, it's something I want to avoid.

Mother Earth/Nature: The Holy Trinity is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Mother Nature/Earth is a man made 'superstition.' I don't believe it is a part of any religion and I don't believe anyone actually believes in a 'Mother Nature/Earth.' It's basically just a term used to describe the natural events of earth.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Jesus chile
Member
(9/7/00 8:24:07 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: elephant POS
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"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
- Isaiah 1:18-20, RSV

I have lately been pondering two questions:

1) If we are all sinners, or rather, if I am a sinner, how much am I motivated by self-loathing?

2) If there is a God, as described in the Bible, how can we know him?
wwjd


theproffet
Member
(9/8/00 5:41:07 am)
| Edit | Del If Jon ever surfs the web,
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"I hope he stumbles over this! I'm sure I could find a debate with him too.

Ruahaholic, I implicitly believe in the divinity inherent in Gaia, Mother Earth, and many other names. Living things are the ultimate expression of love, from a living and ever-present Goddess. You, my sisters, my non-genetic brothers, my five month old kitten that can't seem to be litter trained, and the 90 year old oak on my family's farm, are all dynamic avatars, pieces of godhood if you will. I'm not sure why I impute the evidence for something greater as a Mother, but it feels right to me.

At one point in my life, I was "saved" by Southern Baptists, but I can't accept that this world is removed from other greatness. I'm willing to go to hell to fight for what I love here. I've got a lot to do yet.

"Superstition," as a term, can be applied any belief, irregardless of it's books, or lack of them. But if reverance for life is a sin, tie me up and burn me at a stake now. Wait, I don't have a Bible handy, perhaps the proscribed punishment is stoning . . .some of us have had to suffer a lot, just to get to hell!
"You call me a fool, you say it's a crazy scheme--this one's for real, I already bought the dream."


conall
Member
(9/8/00 9:44:42 am)
| Edit | Del Re: elephant POS
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Ridiculous.

2+1= 4
2+2= 4
2+3= 4

Have an open mind.

I have been where you are. I have a very good idea where you're coming from. Basically, you create the God of your choosing. I used to do that. But that can't be right because God *is* God. He is an objective reality, though mysterious. You can argue about what that is, but you can't accept three contradictory answers (see above). We are not talking about parts of an elephant, we are looking at a whole elephant, a whole tiger, and a whole giraffe and calling them all an elephant.

I simply admitted to myself that if there is a God, he's a lot older and wiser than me. I've only existed for a mere 40 years! The knowledge of God must come from somewhere external to my imagination.


rushaholic
Member
(9/8/00 8:11:16 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: elephant POS
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conall,
my thoughts exactly. I have tried to say some of the same things on this post, but they got eaten up by other people... But that is exactly what I was thinking on some things.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


jackalz
Member
(9/8/00 8:30:56 pm)
| Edit | Del you know
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Conall,

Mathematically, you missed my point. I wasn?t saying 2+3=4, I was saying 1+3=4, then you say 1+3 doesn?t =4, because only 2+2=4.

Anyway, as with rushaholic, I know you are on your own Path, sincere and honest with yourself and God. I applaud that.

I feel, that you probably feel the same way I do, in that, I will follow God, wherever God leads me, no matter what someone on the internet (or anywhere else for that matter) says.

Stand for every right, kick it out, hear you shout, for the right of all of creation.
Release, Release ?Tormato



walkinlight
Member
(9/9/00 5:56:59 am)
| Edit | Del Re: To all in general
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This topic appears to be the one that draws most attention.
(an understatement)

Jack, if you haven't gotten EarthMotherEarth, it's time.

But if you listen to Longwalker (on Toltec, naturally) you will see.

There are many religions, most propping up depending on the times, regions, etc. So many of which say the same things in different Ways. Each of us is here in this Earthtime to get closer to the One. I don't believe in good or evil, right or wrong, just AM I GETTING CLOSER TO THE ONE?
Is what I am doing something that brings me closer to the ONE. My Beliefs? in a nutshell, we are all part of the Whole. And each action and thought either brings us closer to Whole or further from it. I can't help thinking of Jon's words in such an old album, "look out in the night when you're lonely. Listen to the sound that your ears won't hear" (hopefully i didn't butcher it - haven't heard it in years) Or in the Ladder listen to it again !

Without the interaction, sometimes i feel i am losing focus, but if i digress, it is only because there is so much here.

Regarding God, to me, it is that thing that always was and always will be, the All and All and the Thru in Thru. Energy, light, spirit, call it what you will. Religions of the world settle the minds of the masses. Almost all of them started before written language or at least before most people knew how to read or write. Remember, there was no TV and no internet. Prophets travelled, Jesus, Buddha and the Tao. Native Americans and every part of the world and every time (woops must run - hate doing this) to be continued.


Ed Schaum
SysOp
(9/10/00 10:23:56 am)
| Edit | Del Re: I am a POS
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Quote:
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Hey, who is the 'leading' Christian of this board? Ed and Seryn seem to be the 'leading' people, and I thought I remembered hearing Seryn's beliefs before...
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First, the usual "sorry I don't check in as much as I should" disclaimer, things have been exteremely interesting here, I wish I had been spending more time here.

I have a good excuse though, I've been working on an album of original progressive music with the great composer Tim Martin. I'm hoping to be able to post a tune here shortly for critiquing (I must be nuts).

Anyway, I guess I'm simply a Child of God. I was born a Catholic, but realized all the hypocrisy related to being part of that religion somewhere around my coming of age, which also sort of coincided with my discovering Yes.

The first hint came when I started thinking about this Catholic concept of being "the one true religion" and how only Catholics go to heaven, the rest of the world is doomed. Since only about 1-3% of the earth is Catholic, or even Christian, that seemed to be a strange concept. Why would a benevolent, loving God exlcude so many people.

I guess the clincher was finding out that I could "buy" my salvation. If I attended 13 First Friday masses in a row, I would be assured that a priest would be handy when dieing, so I could cash in my forgivness chip.

Keep in mind that I was pretty involved with the church when I was younger. I was in the choir, and I was an altar boy for several years. I went to both a Catholic grammer school and high school.

These days, I see the wonder of God in a snowflake or a dewdrop, and see that we are all children of god, each religion is just a personal vehicle for ones faith. The jews are no more the chosen people than I'm the messiah (nor was Jesus, for that matter in my opinion).

We're not here to spend our lives worshipping some icon that we've created. The joy is to just revel in the world around us, to try to be good to all people. This way our lives become a celebration of what God has created for us to enjoy.

The great thing for me is that I find these kinds of themes recurring throughout Yes music. Indeed, "I have walked the paths of all the known religions" is quite a telling line. We should all learn as much as we can about other philosophies and we'll find that we're all on the same journey.

To me, anyone who says "I have the right religion, and until you see it my way, you're doomed" still has a lot to learn.

I probably should have read this whole thread before jumping in, but I only made it as far as the first few messages so far. I wonder what I'm getting into here


jackalz
Member
(9/10/00 12:22:45 pm)
| Edit | Del Thank you, All
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Part I, this was going to go into the topic, Solos, but it disappeared.

Yesman90125,
The most grief I?ve felt was when my cat died. So I doubt I can offer any perspective with what happened to your Mom. But, you?ve got that perspective to share with theproffet, perhaps that will find some positive to balance. Some Zen koan book I bought during my journey, had a koan like this: A Zen master, Yesman90125 was his name, lost his Mom to cancer. One of his disciples came to him and said why are you crying, everything is an illusion, so there is no need to cry. The Zen master said, yes, but the death of a loved one is the greatest of illusions.

Walkinlight,
I bought Earth Mother Earth about a week after my cat died, so maybe that?s why I blocked it from my memory. I mean, I was seriously grieving, as only those who lose the best and closest friend know (not quite on the level of losing a parent or family member, but possibly close, as it is like an adopted child (with my reclusive tendencies, Peanutio was a very close friend)). After a week of crying on and off, I thought maybe EME could help distract. And he puts in a song about how wonderful his cats are. So I try every once in a while to listen to it, now. Yeah, I like it, even with Jon and Jane sounding a little too child-like for my taste. I love the child-like attitude, but too much is when one tries to deny or ignore all the negativity that exists. Of course, relationship-wise, J+J were still in the early stages of honeymoon, so that was the way they were feeling and sharing. Anyway, regarding all Jon?s other solos, duets and such, there?s only so much cash money that I can channel to music. I love Yes, but I do try to find other sources with similar creativity and love, (blasphemy!? I know, but that?s me).

Part II, spillover! A being?s got to do, what a being?s got to do.

OK, theology. My view of God is that God is All. I view a quadrant of the aspects of Everything, subdivided like this:
noGodnoPersonality; noGodyesPersonality;
yesGodnoPersonality; yesGodyesPersonality.
So in nGnP, this is an atheist perspective, I?ve got to be open to the possibility that this is just the way it is, because so much of life bears witness to this being Truth.
In nGyP, even though there is no God, still the infinite universe communicates with me/us as individual(s).
In yGnP, It exists, but God is so big, like the relationship I/we have with an atom.
In yGyP, this is the possible reality, also bearing witness as Truth, that God has an active relationship with everything I/we do.
Now, moment by moment, I balance, or try to anyway, all these into One. God is All Things, Through and Thru.

Happy Elephant hunting,
God luv ya,
We don?t even need to try, We are one!



yesfan37
Member
(9/10/00 12:49:48 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: To all in general
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by now I'm sure everyone has heard the popes message. Only the catholics are the true religion and every other religion is behind them . The catholics have first place and have God's favor sorry everyone else you come in 2nd or not at all.
This is why I have such a hard time with catholics.


yesman90125
Member
(9/10/00 1:04:56 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: To all in general
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extreme views often tend to be exclusionary
the pope is no exception
AT ONE WITH THE KNOWLAGE AND MAGIC OF THE SOURCE


rushaholic
Member
(9/11/00 6:03:27 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: To all in general
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Ed,
You're right, there is a lot of hypocrisy in Catholicism, and the sale of indulgences is the biggest joke ever! That's why Martin Luther led the Protestant Reformation- to return Christianity back to the basis of the Bible and not some group of holier-than-thoughs.
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Jesus chile
Member
(9/11/00 6:37:10 pm)
| Edit | Del More questions?
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Two more questions, if you please.

Question # 1:
How can ones theology be put to the test? How do we answer the BIG question of who/what/where is God? Besides suicide, of course. And, besides arguing in circles. Not that it isn't fun, and at least you can't throw virtual rocks. But anyway, outside of my word vs. your word, how can you KNOW? We all assume, unless . . . you've actually been in contact with the Godhead. Personally. Possession by his spirit would be pretty convincing, at least to you/me as individuals. I'm convinced.

Question # 2:
How do you use the emoticons?
wwjd


jackalz
Member
(9/12/00 12:15:30 pm)
| Edit | Del questions #2
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As soon as I learn about emoticons, I will be omnipotent.


PapaJimH
Member
(9/12/00 3:15:52 pm)
| Edit | Del Bass Man...
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Chris Squire got his start with Barnum and Bailey.

"We can be as one and be farther than the distance to the sun." - SB


Seryn
Member
(9/12/00 3:32:43 pm)
| Edit | Del A Spiritual Tornado!
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What a powerful thread you've wove! My brain is in pain. Five pages of such wonderful controversy...I'm so surprised to see so many Christian Yesfans! Conall, was it you who said you would like to see Jon Anderson find Christ way back about five pages ago? I have prayed that he finds him one day because if Jon gave half the time he gives to the Divine Mother or whatever all that is...Jesus would have quite a warrior working for him! Jesus Chile, I'm glad you jumped in.

You are all very right...I am certainly Christian...more strongly now than I was when I first came to Yestalk. There have been several events that have led me to this strong worship of Jesus Christ. For one, I just took some time out to read the New Testament and what I found there was beautiful! I am sure that there are many mistakes in translation and scripture of the Bible because the only perfect being, whether it be person, place, or thing...is the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost...which is all one package IMO. (Some churches actually belief the Bible is talking about three different gods there! I don't know how they get that) I have never been true to any one church. Right now I've been visiting the World Wide Church of God and I've been surprised at the changes they have had to undergo at that church. The ppl have a lot of faith. The person who originally started the church made a prophecy that the world was ending in 1999 (I think that is what he said) and when 1999 was gone and 2000 came...what a beating the ppl of that church must of felt. But they are still together. Impressive. OK, that was a side track, kinda. I guess that is an example of how imperfect churches are, but that its the faith and the will to do good that really counts in ppl.

I am not sure what to say about the other religions in the world. When a person is raised on Hinduism, it would take some kind of strength to convert to Christianty. I mean, all of his views would have to change and he would have to make seperation from his family. The Bible does say that Jesus is the only way to God, but...I just don't know. When a baby dies during birth, it never gets to make that choice, but I don't see it going to hell. I also don't see a man going to hell because all he knew was Hinduism. What about the Native Americans? No one was there to give them a Bible before Christopher Columbus came around (or whoever first discovered America!). Are they going to hell? I don't think so. They worshiped one god through nature...it was the only way they knew to worship God. They did not know about Jesus, but they did their best to worship God (well, some of them didn't but you know what I mean). Baptists believed that you cannot get to heaven unless you are 'saved' and I just don't understand that. I have been saved and I feel very good about it, but I really believe there are multiple paths to God and Jesus and heaven. I don't claim to know what they are, though. Do I think that Jon will be doomed to hell while Rick is ascended to heaven because of his Christianity? I just don't see it happening that way...Jon is a good-hearted man who strives to help others. I would like to think that he, along with other non-Christians,will all be given another chance at Judgement Day to repent and turn to Jesus if what was in their hearts was good. I hope that made sense. Whether you agree or not is another thing all together.

One of you mentioned that we are all hypocrites and sinners, that we would be calling God a liar if we could not admit this. Amen, brother! Sometimes even I have to remind myself of this, though. I want to look down on the people at my college for coming to a Christian college and not keeping Christian values. You know, they go out and party, get drunk, get knocked up, and who knows what else while they've lost their senses. They cuss like sailors in a hurricane and laugh at their classmates and professors for not being


Seryn
Member
(9/12/00 4:06:06 pm)
| Edit | Del Emoticons
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When you are replying to a message there is a bunch to "How Tos" in blue print over to the left. One says "use emoticons" There is an entire list of emotion icons and how to activate them. For a quick example: for a smiley face you push the colon button and the right parentheses button. Notice how it looks like a sideways smiley when you do that. Not all are so obvious. For the laugh outloud face you push the colon button and lol right after that. Then you get the cute laughing face! I printed out the list so I could get to know all the different codes, myself.

Hope that helps

Be Free


rushaholic
Member
(9/12/00 8:35:10 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: Emoticons
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Seryn,
Great stuff! I have had many similar questions, many of which hurt the brains of my poor confirmation class teachers back in 8th grade! My mother has some very interesting beliefs about that:

1. The Jews: The Jews are waiting for the messiah, so if Jesus truly is the messiah as I believe, then they will be saved when he comes the second time, because he's still the messiah.

2. Non-believers: The Bible says every knee shall bow before me, so my mother thinks this might mean everyone will turn to God, but perhaps not until after death

3. Infants: Many people believe that people must reach a certain age before they can truly make a decision. Youths are very subject to the ideas and actions of their parents and peers, so who can hold them accountable? The Bible also says that Jesus knows everyone before they are born.


Seryn,
I also think it's great that you read the New Testament already. I have been a Christian already, but never really sat down and read the Bible until this summer. I'm almost finished with Acts, but I did some skipping around. The first book I read was actually Revelations. What a story! EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN YOU SHOULD READ REVELATIONS, IT IS A GREAT BOOK!!!
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Golden Void
Member
(9/12/00 9:01:13 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: A Spiritual Tornado!
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Seryn, I'm quite sure there are good-hearted Hindus just as unwilling to condemn you to whatever the Hindu version of hell is simply because you are wrong in your beliefs, as you are unwilling to condemn them to your Hell because they are wrong in theirs. And in so doing, I'm sure you are both disagreeing with the dogma and teachings of your respective churches and religions. Both of you would be quite concerned with the fate of my soul, since I follow neither of your religions. I guess a big difference is while you might think I'm in danger, I don't think you are.

The problem with discussing the differences in religions among followers of those religions, is that a person of true faith does not believe they are right. The KNOW they are. There is no room for argument or discussion as to the basic tenets of their beliefs, only the minor details. Which leads to people of one religion, with nothing but good intentions and kind hearts, trying to convert devout believers in another, in order to save them from the error of their incorrect beliefs, while those they are attempting to convert are similarly trying to save said missionaries. This can lead to a lot of conflict among completely well-meaning people.

I mentioned my beliefs in another topic called, I believe, "The Meaning of Yes". In that topic is also a link to Opioworld, where you can read a bit about Jon's beliefs (not as much as I was hoping for), which are similar. Among the similarities, I think, is that we both believe that there are multiple paths to God, and yours (Jesus) does not preclude someone else's (Hindus, for instance) from being correct. That does, of course, conflict with the teachings of both religions.

Because of that, though I believe Jesus is a perfectly valid path, I can not and do not call myself a Christian, nor would any Christian church sanction my views. This seems to bother Christians more than it bothers me. In any case, I don't think you need concern yourself with the fate of Jon's soul, and I'm pretty sure he would agree with that.

Sadly, the Opioworld material is, I think, too thin to be very enlightening to someone unfamiliar with such belief systems. It speaks of artificial divisions between religions without really getting into what they mean by that. Perhaps some of the links lead to more informative material, I didn't dig as deeply as I could have.

In any case, God Bless you, Blessed Be, Shalom, etc.


Seryn
Member
(9/13/00 8:53:26 am)
| Edit | Del re:
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You will have to forgive my motherly instincts when I worry about ppl like Jon. I just want to see everyone walking around in heaven...whatever it is like...when the time comes. I just worry about ppl too much.

Oh, great...time to go debate about evolution again. I've got a class right now that revolves around the subject...it is just as tedious and interesting as the religious debate. I'll get back to this later.

Be Forever


Jesus chile
Member
(9/13/00 9:06:13 am)
| Edit | Del Re: A Spiritual Tornado!
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: I finally got it! Typed them out, thought they weren't working, then previewed, and voila!

Thanks, everybody! I had seen the "Use Emoticons" link, and tried them, but thought because they didn't come up while I was composing my post, but heyheyHEY!

Guess this blows my subterfuge about being some kind of spiritual giant. To get back to being crushingly dull, it reminds me of a question a pastor once asked the group at a bible study: Do you think Jesus ever farted? Think about it. They're sitting around the campfire one night, and Peter lets go with a real ripper. Would Jesus laugh? Too many Christians act as if he wouldn't, but God has to have a sense of humor. Otherwise, why would he have made so many people?

Voidoid, the reason Christians get so uptight is because we're afraid that we're right, and if we are, then you've got a problem. As songwriter Bob Bennett once wrote:

Jesus said he was the way
And you must be born again
and if you disagree,
don't complain to me,
You can argue with Him.

Which brings me back to the questions I've been asking. Don't be lazy, look 'em up! I'm amazed that, as many verbose and intelligent people are following this ever-growing thread, no one, not even the utterly fearless Rushaholic, has seen fit to address them.

Except of course for the one about emoticons. Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU!!!

Well, time to be
wwjd


Seryn
Member
(9/13/00 10:31:36 am)
| Edit | Del re:
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Glad you got those funny faces to work, Jesus Chile! They're fun to use, huh?

Call me ignorant...but what is it you are asking us to look up? Do you want us to look up the stuff we've been talking about in the Bible. I figured Rushaholic was doing a pretty good job...maybe I'm just confused. That would be nothing new, though. I have looked our questions up. Lately, I've been kind of looking up more stuff on evolution in Genesis than anything else...I have three classes out of five that have been addressing the fact of evolution(not the evolution of natural selection that does obviously exist, but the theory that man evolved from apes)pretty heavily. Its crazy! But I was reading what Jesus said about forgiveness and Him being the only path to God. There is one place that jumped out at me...sorry, I didn't look up the exact place it was at. But Jesus was explaining that "With God, all things are possible" What he was talking about was forgiveness. Although humans would consider a rich man doomed to hell because of what Jesus said about the poor being blessed and the rich being in big trouble...Jesus said that God could find forgiveness and that even the rich man could go to heaven. Well, that is plenty confusing and rather vague. Jesus doesn't explain why this is possible. Do we really expect him to give away all the answers, though? Then we wouldn't have to have faith.

I have been doing my homework and I will continue to. But a lot of the words in the Bible do not give us the answer straight out...we have to come to our own conclusions and follow what's in our hearts. The equation could never be complete without faith, though. We must trust that God knows what is right for us.

Be Forever


rushaholic
Member
(9/13/00 2:48:01 pm)
| Edit | Del
Re: re:
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Jesus chile,
I thought I did address your questions... Scroll up a bit and see if you can find my reply. Either you over looked it or something happened when I went to post it, but I do remember writing an answer, or my beliefs at least.

EVOLUTION: I can't say I believe that evolution is entirely a hoax, but I do believe that God created the world. Some people just say, maybe God used evolution to create the world. Maybe, but there are even better combinations. Think about this:

When God created the animals, the plants, and humans, he did not start them out as seeds and fetuses. They were all already matured to some extent. Adam and Eve were adults. So if God created these beings matured, why can't earth be the same way? These plants and animals and humans also reproduce, and start these new lives from scratch, so who's to say evolution is not a possiblity for the future, or even back to just after creation.

So no, I don't think man evolved from apes, but maybe it just seems that way because the earth was created at a mature age.

Seryn,
That's always seemed an interesting verse to me. The exact (paraphrased) event was as such, for those interested: A man approaced Jesus and said, teacher, what must I do to get into heaven. Jesus replied something like, "Obey the commandments." The man said, "I have done all of these things." Jesus said, "Then sell all of your belongings and give the money to the poor." The man walked away sad, for he was very rich. Jesus turned to the disciples and said, "I tell you the truth, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man to go to heaven." His disciples responded questioning how any wealthy man can get to heaven. Jesus said, "To the eye of a man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-------
"It could be carried by an African Swallow."
Rushaholica
The Ladder of Syrinx Message Board


Golden Void
Member
(9/14/00 12:20:30 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: re:
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Jesus Chile: I know. Every real missionary that's ever existed (including one of my uncles) does what they do out of the sincere desire to help people find salvation. It is a fine and noble calling, if in fact you all are right. And of course you know that you are. So how can anything be wrong with that?

There's simply no way to have a rational discussion between 2 people that KNOW the truth, but the truths they know disagree. At least not a rational discussion that will lead anywhere. It's the immovable rock and the irresistable force. All I can say is that I believe I worship the same God you do, though perhaps from a different perspective, a different concept of God, and of worship. Of course, I would make the same statement to a Wiccan. We are all seekers of the truth. There's only one truth, but it is larger and more complex than we comprehend, and so we can approach it from many different angles, and it will look different, but only due to our limited understanding of it.


theproffet
Member
(9/14/00 3:18:05 am)
| Edit | Del Unless you mention Yes
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In some obscure way is your responses, you may be preaching without any results.

But irregardless, I am concerned with the lack of tolerance, and listening in this forum since I started the whole shebang. I'm a witch, and at the age of 39, a somewhat "seasoned" one. And for not being a Christian, I believe that everyone is entitled to a view of what they believe is holy, and you just can't argue about what works for you.

I'm still waiting on refutations via theology. Read my previous posts, and tell me why your god will make me burn in hell. If I cop a bullet for the next Messiah, and don't buy into his pronouncements, I'm not eating peaches with Pat Robertson?

The people I love mean more to me than any reward.

I take the Bible quite seriously, but there is no way in Hell I would kill my son. Jehovah can get down on his hands and knees, but I'm not Isaac.

Human life and ideas are obviously sacred, and the Bible tells us that they're not. I disagree.


"You call me a fool, you say it's a crazy scheme--this one's for real, I already bought the dream."


Poodeeo
Member
(9/14/00 8:30:07 am)
| Edit | Del re: Unless you mention Yes
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proffet, if you get a chance, read the "Gita" and you'll see why if God asks to kill, you would be able to. The whole story takes place on a battle field, between a warrior and God(Krishna). In a nut shell, God tells him he must go to battle, and in doing so, he must slaughter his own family. How horrific, eh? But he becomes enlightened, and sees the TRUTH, that our bodies are not real, they're nothing, and we are not separate, we are all one. It's our fear that made separateness, egos believing in illusion. That is the real message of the Christ, not Christianity as made by the Church. And we're all Christ, all one Sonship.

we have heaven


rushaholic
Member
(9/14/00 11:18:18 am)
| Edit | Del re: Unless you mention Yes
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theproffit,
Your concerns are ones that come from someone who does not believe in an afterlife. We live on earth for roughly 80 years or so, but spend an eternity in the afterlife. So this life doesn't really matter as much as the next. And God did not allow him to kill his son, it was just a test to see who he loved more, God or another human. And it's not like if he killed his son that was the end of him.


Seryn
ForumOp
(9/14/00 12:21:23 pm)
| Edit | Del Do The Evolution!
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There are enough mixed up beliefs about evolution! Some believe that the seven "days" it took God to make the earth was the period of evolution from ape to man. I don't really think it is that way. But I do know, and it should really be a law and not a theory, that evolution occurs. Humans induce artificial evolution all the time. Ex1: the peppered moth undergoed evolution because of the coal waste that settled on the trees in Britain. There is the black peppered moth and the white peppered moth. Before, the white peppered moth was able to camoflage easiest and therefore avoid its prey. Now, the black moth has the advantage and the species is converting to a totally black color. Ex2: scientists have let viruses loose in Australia to kill the huge population of rabbits. This does work for a while, but there are always mutations in a few of the rabbits that make them resistant to the virus. So, the rabbits with this mutation survive, breed, and make baby bunnies with the same mutated gene which eventually becomes the normal gene instead of the mutated one. Of course, this means that the virus won't work anymore and they have to find another to kill this whole new rapidly growing population. Seems we are just running in circles with that one. The point: the bunnies have evolved, or changed, to adapt to their environment, otherwise known as Darwin's theory of "Survival of the Fittest." These things happen naturally as well. It happens a lot slower when it occurs naturally. The fish that lives in...Africa,maybe...the mudskipper was probably completely aquatic at one time. It most likely had to change over the years to adapt to water shortages and survive in the mud instead of the water alone. So, I have no problems with the theory...I just don't see that we have enough proof to say that humans came from apes. I do believe that our bodies probably couldn't have looked the same thousands of years ago as they do now. We probably did have the tendency of walking forward with bent backs at one point. But at that time we probably didn't look like a chimpanzee either. That is my theory...what's yours?

Rushaholic, thankyou so much for posting that passage! I was going to but homework sidetracked me...I know...some excuse, huh? You are a student too. But for me to remember to do something...I need to start carrying a little Bible around so I'll remember to read it more often! *sigh*

Prof: I am not going to start being motherly and worry about your soul. I'm trying to do better...but I wonder about Wiccans. Can you explain exactly what the religion is so I can make a valid opinion on it? I know it has a lot to do with nature, but so many people think it means witches and spells. In the Bible it says witches are not good things, but I've been told that a true Wiccan is nothing like that. I'm confused...explain!

Be Forever


jackalz
Member
(9/16/00 9:13:02 am)
| Edit | Del Page 5
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A couple of views went by lately that I wanted to address.

Sure there is a lot of hypocrisy in the catholic religion, but not any more hypocrisy than in any other religion or philosophy. I don?t want to enumerate (at least, not anymore than I already have), pointing out the mote in the other?s eye. Like my parents (and other golfers) are prone to say, it?s much easier to see faults in someone else?s swing.

The Jews, non-believers and infants? won?t turn to God, (assuming they haven?t already), they?ll acknowledge reality, All is ?God?. Then they get back to more important lessons, how to live right, right now, in the moment they find themselves. As for evolution or not, I just don?t see that it?s all that important. Be here now. Work on developing your loving capacity, as in Jesus (and others) two commandments. Of course, it?s the natural way, you knew it was wise, and were doing it before Jesus (and others) told you.

I don?t think Jesus ever farted, because it wasn?t written in the Bible. How dare you think outside the Bible?

Sell all that you have and give the money to the poor? Has anyone tried that? I guess if you didn?t, you can?t get to heaven.

?Sacred ships do sail the seventh age, and have always been here??Madrigal, Tormato
?Countless expansions will arrive and flow inside of us,
My friend, he of fantasy, dancing with the spirit of the age? --same
YEStalk Archives

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Postby YEStalk Archives » Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:43 am

walkinlight
Member
(9/16/00 7:51:50 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Page 5
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Jack thanks

i have always felt written religion was to help those who could not confront the situation of "what are we here for?"

they know there is bodydeath

little else did they know

but, YES, there is that eternal energy, that soul, that light, and how to explain it?

there is the Tao, Buddha, and Jesus Christ, the Son,

no one ever mentioned Mind

you make your own heaven
"we have heaven"

there is more

to be continued


jackalz
Member
(9/16/00 8:05:54 pm)
| Edit | Del So, prof
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What do witches like you do? Season the cauldron? No, seriously, why did you choose Wicca? --and what do you do? Inquiring minds want to know.


Jesus chile
Member
(9/16/00 10:39:13 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: re: Unless you mention Yes
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Interesting passage, the one about Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac. He had to show his trust of something bigger than himself. Who or what do you trust that much? Whose hands are you willing to put yourself into? Who are you willing to serve, regardless of yourself?

I asked my love to give me shelter
And all she offered me were dreams

When you rely on yourself, your ideas, your strength, your wisdom, you are limiting yourself. The one hope I see is the continuing search for the truth. Don't ever stop that. Of course, unless you want to. Your business, not mine. Faith is a journey, not a destination.

"One man with courage is a majority."
- Andrew Jackson

Peace.
wwjd


Seryn
ForumOp
(9/18/00 2:54:07 pm)
| Edit | Del Re:
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I've tried to put myself in Abraham's place, in my mind. I've thought about what I would do in a situation like that, bit I really don't know what I would do unless it happened...which I pray it doesn't.

PROF, where are you. You contributed so much to this thread and now you've dissapeered! I'd like to know about the Wiccan religion. I'm ignorant.

Be Forever


theproffet
Member
(9/19/00 6:53:48 pm)
| Edit | Del Whatza Wiccan? That's a good question . . .
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Actually I would say that I'm a secular humanist first, and then Wiccan to the extent that it doesn't disagree with rational scientific knowledge (stuff we can prove about life and the universe--I don't believe that Gods or Goddesses give us misleading clues).
I think the largest difference between Wiccans and other religions is a belief in divinity as being immanent rather than transcendant. There's a lot of holy stuff all around me that I can see now, and I can't prove there's anything else up there, or down there, or anyplace else. I'd rather work on here.
Of course there is the idea of the multiplicity of divinity. Many Gods and Goddesses rather than one. So there's always room for more, Christian, ad infinitum. Being Wiccan comes with a built-in tolerance, allowing for many Gods. One of the problems of early Christianity was their intolerance, whereas the the Pagan Greeks and Romans couldn't care less what you believed in as long as you paid your taxes and didn't cause trouble (the later Romans got into the divinity of Caesar--again, one God, many problems relating to others).
I don't think I have THE ONE TRUE WAY. Wiccans don't proselytize and feel that they are meant to walk that path. Nobody threatens you with eternal damnation; instead, you find it on your own, and experience a feeling of "coming home," finding a name for something you always felt, but couldn't name.
I'm really not the best spokesman for Wicca, as my beliefs are ecclecic and in constant flux. Recently, I've been intrigued by Teilhard de Chardin, and his philosophies of an emergent consciousness, an evolutionary divinity if you will.
Oh, I can't resist a question for Christians: If human beings didn't descend from apes (or rather, a common ancestor), why is our DNA almost identical to that of chimps? Is mitochondrial DNA a lie created by God? Sorry, but maybe that'll keep things going for five more pages . . .
"It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness." Tolstoy


yesman90125
Member
(9/26/00 12:05:54 am)
| Edit | Del thanx again.
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been gone from here for a while and will be gone again for awhile . all this stuff is hitting home again . just lost my dad so all these questions (and answers) are very close to home. feeling like its time to take it all very seriously. i printed this forum and have been reading it over the last week and it has helped . so thanks to all
i dont know why but for some reason 9 voices has become a real "tear jerker" lately and so has home world . its strange really but as i begin to pack up my parents home
the song has special (and new) meaning "our home is our world our life" i dont know why 9 voices has moved me so
but it has . thanx to you all for some special insight into spitituality and the good in peoples hearts
see ya all when the mess is done

CHILDREN OF LIGHT, DON'T BE AFRAID


Poodeeo
Member
(9/26/00 12:34:22 pm)
| Edit | Del re: thanx again.
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Yesman,

Know that your Dad, as will be true of us all, has not "gone" anywhere, but merely has changed forms. Our bodies are illusions, not of the "real world" as Jesus tells us in "A Course in Miracles". He may return in a different form, until he has no need for another body. ALL THINGS, are lessons God would have us learn.

we have heaven


PapaJimH
Member
(9/26/00 6:14:18 pm)
| Edit | Del
From the grave...
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as Jesus tells us in "A Course in Miracles"

Jesus wrote a book???
"Children yet to be born, don't you mourn me now..." - SB


Seryn
ForumOp
(9/27/00 8:28:41 am)
| Edit | Del re:
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To Be Over...my dad can't even listen to that song much anymore because he listened to it so much to ease the pain of his grandmother's death, a couple years before I was born. The only personal experience I have between the relation of death and music was when my dog was put to sleep...I cried at nights, listened to all the sad sounding music I could muster up, and felt stupid for crying so much over a goofy german shepard. If any of my family ever died...there would be no listening to music to ease the pain because they would have me locked up in a sanitarium. So, Yesman, I really hope Jesus guides you through this fragile time in life and that you realize that you have not seen the last of your father. When you are brought together with him again, you will probably see him in a way you never did before and it is something to look forward to. I hope this experience isn't a squelch to your faith, and that you find strength. If there is anything we can do here...please don't hesitate to ask. I will certainly keep you in my prayers. *hugz*

Be Forever


Seryn
ForumOp
(9/27/00 8:49:12 am)
| Edit | Del I'm going bananas!
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Prof, if this thread does go on for another five pages...it will have to be converted to a "theology spillover #2" As far as your innocent little question goes...I have questions in my mind and have not been able to settle for one answer. Evolution is a point shoved under the aspiring biologist's nose everyday and there are so many different answers and explanations. I have thought that the days of creation before Adam and Eve were created, born, whatever...could have been the transition between chimp and human. That the touch of divinity, as my honors seminar teacher calls it, came during those days. Of course, I have my reserves about that. There is no way to get the answer from the Bible because the two stories of creation in Genesis are so different. The Bible is not meant to give the answers to every question in the human mind, but to give guidelines for the Christian to live by, and to test the Christian's faith...there are so many contradicting stories and phrases in the Bible that I believe it was meant to be confusing. That way, a true Christian would be able to put the questions aside long enough to say "Hey, the Bible is not perfect, only God is, and I have enough faith in him not to let these unanswered things rock my world" But back to the monkey thing. There is also the simple answer given by the simple part of my mind that says God just made monkeys and they happened to have DNA very similar to our own and that is that. But I'm not sure of the answer and I never will have anything more than theories and hypothesis rolling around in my head over that and many other subjects. I just have take a deep breath and tell myself "whatever the answer is, God did it, and that's the way it is!" If God did it, it really doesn't matter how, at least not for now.

"If all the ignorance in the world, passed a second ago, what would you say? And who would you obey?"

A quote by Live in the song 10,000 years/Peace Is Now, refering to the 10,000 years Jesus will reign on earth again and be king. Besides the fact that Live is one of my other fav bands, this quote seems to fit the occassion. If the sky opened up and we all suddenly knew the answers to questions about evolution and other things...would it make a difference in the way we live and to how things are? Maybe...or perhaps not.

Be Free



Poodeeo
Member
(9/27/00 10:57:47 am)
| Edit | Del RE: From the grave...
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Actually, he "dictated" the Course to a woman in the late '60's, over a period of 7 years. Next time your at your local book store, take a look at it. Read the intro and you'll see how the Course came to be. It takes very little time to realize that it's "not of this world"

we have heaven


jackalz
Member
(9/27/00 12:29:18 pm)
| Edit | Del Death and on
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I've got to go with Seryn in that the Bible (and all other sources of inspiration, in my case) is all about giving guidelines to living life. I basically see it mostly about developing love. That said, I find there are times, when angrily screaming at God/Universe/Infinity is the best medicine. Once heard, that entity takes some notice, then gives some explanation. Usually, the explanation makes me feel foolish, explaining something I already knew. Good Luck, Yesman.


theproffet
Member
(9/28/00 4:43:08 am)
| Edit | Del I've just come from there, 90125
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My father had a fatal heart attack right after Ladder was released. And as the only viable male in authority from my family, I found a great deal of comfort in the songs. Working through relationships with my family, my eventual demise, land, animals, grief, etc., I found "Homeworld" uncannily relevant to my situation. "A question of origin . . ." And how could I relate to all of these old issues? Well, through my family and home: "Just what keeps us so alive? Just what makes us realise, Our home is our world, our life!" My father's death was hard to deal with, but gave me the opportunity to re-connect with the rest of my family, my home, my life.

But Yestalk is a wonderful home away from home. I always belived that support could flourish here, and Seryn would be jazzed by copecetic souls. Hmmm, seek and ye shall find . . .


"It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness." Tolstoy


Seryn
ForumOp
(9/29/00 8:17:24 am)
| Edit | Del Homeworld
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You could take the lyrics away from that song, and it would still kick your soul into an eruption of emotions. But Jon's voice seems to add something magical to every Yessong. I wonder how many of us have cried to one of their songs?

I, too, consider this a home away from home. I never thought that would be possible either...afterall, this is only a messageboard based on the narrow topic of Yes. I was quite mistaken, though. We all seem to be pretty content enough with eachother, now, that we are opening up and talking about other things, while we still manage to relate our discussions to Yes! Of course, a girl would consider that a wonderful thing. I just hope all of you do.

Be Forever


yesman90125
Member
(10/11/00 5:07:03 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Homeworld
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thanx everyone for your nice comments

CHILDREN OF LIGHT, DON'T BE AFRAID


walkinlight
Member
(10/12/00 6:42:04 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Homeworld
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we actually took a breather in the spillover topic

truth is a simple place

there for us all to see

nice to get the spillover going again

more later (gotta go to , ugh, work)

peace


Poodeeo
Member
(10/12/00 9:06:56 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Homeworld
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Yes, Truth is very simple, but it's not easy. Living in Truth is very difficult, but not impossible. Most people want it both ways. All that is required is "a little willingness".


jackalz
Member
(10/12/00 11:36:06 am)
| Edit | Del Easy or Hard?
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Due to perpetual change, sometimes excrutiatingly hard, somtimes amazingly easy, usually somewhere in the middle fluctuating. IMO


Seryn
ForumOp
(10/16/00 8:49:48 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Easy or Hard?
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I cannot match the wise words the rest of you have offered to our friend. I hope you are doing OK, Yesman. If there is anything we can do just give us a yell.

Our theology philosophy seemed to come to a screeching halt. Myself, I am theologically exhausted.

Be Forever
"The Oceans made me, but who came up with love?" "We spend all of our time goin'out of our minds, Looking back to our birth, forward to our demise" "If there were no angels, would there be no sin?" "Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays; always doors to lock away your dreams."


yesman90125
Member
(10/17/00 12:09:30 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Easy or Hard?
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i actually was kinda burned out on it too seryn but
i do plan to be back with a few new books under my belt.
and another batch of life experimants with truth .
you guys are great !!!
i actually had a number of you contact me personally through e-mail with very kind wishes
in a time when i've felt really alone it took a bunch of strangers to make me realize we are all in this together (life)
which only reinforces my feeling that there's more to this yes music than meets the eye
it rings true with the yesfans that i meet at shows and things too
and even my own kids (rap fans uuuughhh) seem to understand that this really is relevant music socially as well as spiritually.
proffet:
i really can relate to your situation and perhaps the only thing me or anyone can say is your not alone
"never have never will be"
in life it seems you take the good with the bad
good things often come from bad things and the reverse is also true .
if everyday was a sunny day
then a sunny day wouldnt be special
CHILDREN OF LIGHT, DON'T BE AFRAID


Poodeeo
Member
(10/17/00 12:08:40 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Easy or Hard?
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I think Jesus' phrase "Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists" is very deep, deeper than one might think on 1st pass. What he's really saying is that only Love exists; all else is illusion, and therefore nonexistent. Wouldn't the movie have a different ending if he had cursed his accusers while on the cross? No, he did not because he broke through the illusion. He was incapable of feeling pain, anger, attack, defensive, because what is not Love does not exist. These are attributes of the ego mind. He could not feel these emotions because, as an enlightened being, he broke through the illusion, and these attributes were not within him. You can only recognize in another what is already inside of yourself. So, in our lives, we must break through the illusion, choose foregiveness, not attack, upon something that is unreal.
If every day were a sunny day, we could all go home together. How do we do it? See your brother not as separate, but as yourself, and forgive, for forgiveness is the earthly form of Love.

A good example is the situation in the middle east. People living out a viscious cycle of attack and defense. They have all the religious tools necessary to create peace, but they CHOOSE war, because they only see separateness, which leads to fear, anger, and attack. In the bible it says "many are called, few are chosen". Jesus corrects this mis-statement by saying " all are called, few listen".

we have heaven. It's not a place, only a choice.

peace



jackalz
Member
(10/19/00 9:46:30 pm)
| Edit | Del Jesus
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Conall,

Are you there? -- Or are you showing restraint? -- Or have you given up on the mis-guided?

Poodeeo,

Thanks for the tip on Jesus' speaking engagement.

Jesus,

Wazzzup?


Poodeeo
Member
(10/19/00 11:05:32 pm)
| Edit | Del RE:Jesus
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Nothing real can be threatened. They crucified Jesus, you know?


Seryn
ForumOp
(10/20/00 8:24:09 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Jesus
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Poodeeo, that was a wonderful way of interpreting that. Oh, how I would love to break through the illusion and have nothing but love and forgiveness in my heart. I seem to have brief periods of these feelings, but the tide of society seems to wash me back up on shore and I am caught up in the illusion once more. I sometimes lose touch with Jesus when I am so busy studying for classes or trying to make money stretch further. I sometimes take for granted the fact that I would not be so blessed as to make all A's and be financially secure right now. Instead I worry that it will not last. And only sometimes will I remember that Jesus will always be there for me and that I do not have to worry. I was telling myself last night that I needed to just force myself to time out for ten minutes a day and spend that time with God. Not just in prayer, but looking at the Bible more and feeling the presence of God. It is frustrating trying to find that time in todays world. I know that there is no excuse good enough not to find the time, but I still find myself falling asleep at night and realizing that I haven't even said my prayers. And I'm just all wrapped up in this illusion.

It is hard to believe that Isreal is the land of milk and honey right now. They are so caught up in the illusion they cannot even stop killing for a moment. I cannot stand to watch these Palestinians pull the Jews out of the windows and throw them down to the streets to be beat to death. Why? The news does not do a good job of explaining why they are fighting. They are too concerned that we might lose a little drop of precious oil. It makes me sick to think that the US will not even get involved unless this violence moves further east towards the oil reserves. The US does not care about the ppl dying at all. They care about the oil...the material advantage. And this country will not hesitate to send our young troops to war for this black liquid. I just don't understand it.

If only everyone could decipher Jesus' quote like you did Poodeeo and try to be that way themselves. Even though no one on this planet could be as loving as Jesus, the world sure could benefit from trying.

Be Forever


conall
Member
(10/20/00 10:43:02 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Easy or Hard?
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"I think Jesus' phrase 'Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists' ..."

I don't think this is Jesus' phrase. What's your reference? It's not in the Bible, I'm quite sure.

Would that only love existed! That is reserved for heaven unfortunately. Hate obviously exists in abundance on this broken planet. To deny it is to be in denial of reality.

Jesus *did* feel pain on the cross--excruciating pain. He was very capable of feeling pain, just like you and me. He was also capable of feeling anger. When he cast out the money changers in the temple he was downright angry. Why? Because they were defiling the house of his Holy, Holy, Holy father. Most anger is bad, but there *is* good anger, and that was an example.

Jesus does call us to love our enemies, which is difficult to do. It's difficult because usually our enemies have inflicted *real* harm on us (sometimes it really is an illusion, but not often). I agree that with you on one thing I think: that forgiveness is a form of love. Everything else you say is not biblical at all. Therefore, I don't believe it!

How can Jesus correct something that is in the Bible? That's absurd! Jesus not only wrote (inspired) the Bible, he IS the Bible (John 1:1). Please consider Jesus--the *real* Jesus. Not some Gnostic, heretical misconception of Jesus that you found in some new age bookstore somewhere.



conall
Member
(10/20/00 10:54:28 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Jesus
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Thanks for asking. I'm here, somewhere.

I have been cutting back a bit, trying to refurbish my relationship with my lovely wife. It has been time well spent!

Walk as CHILDREN OF LIGHT, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.






Jesus chile
Member
(10/21/00 10:34:10 am)
| Edit | Del Love?
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Wow. I'd just about completely forgotten about this forum for the last month, and you're still at it? Kudos to all high thinkers.

If I may, I would like submit for your entertainment a quote from 1 John, chapter 4.

7 - Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 - He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
9 - In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

What this says to me is that if you really want to know love, then you have to give yourself to God, who IS love. His existence is its manifestation, and Jesus was a walking-around-in-the-flesh example. Even when he was really ticked off and throwing stuff around, it was because of love! It is NEVER a sinner that he hates, just sin. Give it to him and you will be free. (marked down from $1.9

And when we in our human frailty express honest, true love, it is that echo of God's original creative note sounding through us. The difference between the Holy Spirit of God and other spirits that one might come in contact with is that other spirits promise us power and claim to come in the door subjected to our will. Jesus is at least honest. He says that you must submit yourself to him to access that power and that love. That's the scary part about being a Christian. That total act of trust on the part of the skeptical human. If you honestly, from the heart, ask him to take over, he will.

"I speak from some sort of protection of learning
Even tho' I make it up as I go on
A special trait is that I've tried
To reach all feelings
So I speak a new language of love"

Yesman, my condolences on your loss. You remain in my prayers. Continue to cling to He who saves us all.

Love, joy, and screaming guitars to you all.
wwjd


jackalz
Member
(10/21/00 10:45:08 am)
| Edit | Del The void is filled
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Whew! I couldn't believe that the "True Christian" voice could be silent for so long. But, it all makes sense now. He was on a "missionary" journey. Ouch. Just kidding. I respect your sincere loving (in the developing-a-relationship sense). And appreciate that you've cut back here, as too much preaching at people who already understand what you're saying, but dissagree anyway, is annoying, and doesn't further your cause. Like how you feel when I preach at you.

It doesn't matter what you know, or who you know is coming, it's what you do, regardless. It's what you do eventually. Finally, put it to the test.

Uh-Oh, do I feel another "That's not in the Bible" sermon?



walkinlight
Member
(10/21/00 5:13:45 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Put it to the test
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sounds like JON

that's from the Ladder, right?


jackalz
Member
(10/22/00 1:08:50 pm)
| Edit | Del walkie talkie
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Are you being funny again, walkinlight? Cause you cannot call yerself a Yes fan ever again until you memorize the Ladder especially the in-your-face-true-christian lyrics. Good God ya'all...


Poodeeo
Member
(10/22/00 10:21:38 pm)
| Edit | Del forgiveness and...
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"Nothing real can be threatened". If one's chosen path is real, there's no reason to defend it, to attack others. Perception is not Knowledge. Perception by definition involves judgement. Truth is Truth, unalterable.
The "source" is A Course in Miracles. Hardly new age. More Eastern in content, if one makes comparisions. As I said before, check it out for yourself, what have you to fear? It would only strengthen one's faith. It emphasizes application rather than theory, and experience rather than theology. It specifically states that "a universal theology is impossible, but a universal experience is not only possible, but necessary". Although Christian in statement, the Course deals with universal spiritual themes. It emphasizes that it is but one version of the universal curriculum. There are many others, this one differing from them only in form. They all lead to God in the end.

Oh, and jack, I'm arranging another speaking engagement from one of the great Masters. Stay tuned.

we have heaven


walkinlight
Member
(10/23/00 5:30:46 am)
| Edit | Del Re: meaning of YEW spillover
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not being funny

anyway, would like to share something with you all that opened my eyes even further

i am seeing this nice, young spirit (gf) who was gracious enough to surprise me by playing the Ladder in my car CD player. i asked her if she could read the words as the title cut was playing. she obliged. then spent the next hour asking me what this line means, what that line means, and all of a sudden i realized there are so many that, even spiritual, don't understand

at the same time i wish us YESsers could all sit in a circle and talk about some of these lyrics

with the understanding that some lines, words and phrases will mean different things to different people

well anyway, i found myself trying to explain about, what i guess i could call, my belief system

the purpose to this Earth life is to grow, know yourself, getting closer to the One (the Ladder), find your Way back Home (Nous Sommes du Soleil,

these themes repeat throughout YESmusic


oh, as an aside, Sinead's most recent CD opens with a song that discusses the Light inside

"you're not free, if you don't know me"

it's called Healing Room

ask if you want the lyrics

you would have thought JON wrote it

"walk in the light
thru the night"





conall
Member
(10/23/00 6:53:31 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: The void is filled
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I think that if I've done any preaching, it was not here in this thread. It was someplace else where I extolled the virtues of Howe-Yes over Rabin-Yes!

I can (and have) read all of the stuff on this thread and just sit back and say that's okay--everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Whether it's Hindu scripture, Budhism, or whatever. I mean I think you're wrong, but you think I'm wrong, so it's pointless to discuss these things when there is no hard evidence either way. It boils down to faith.

But I said to myself that I have to draw the line when someone puts false words into (what I believe is) God's or Jesus' mouth. And from a very traditional Christian point of view--Catholic or Protestant--they indeed are false. Those words can cause damage to people who are new Christians! We are warned to watch out for false teachers, etc.

But then again, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, even if it's a god with the same name as my God.

So I'm sorry if I offended anyone. This really is a stupid thread anyway. I came here originally to Talk about Yes, and that is what I intend to do in the future. Yes is something we all have in common. They are the best group of musicians ever, etc., etc. And I promise to never post on this thread again, and please have mercy on me, "the True Christian." (I wish that were true!)

Just another Yesfan.




conall
Member
(10/23/00 9:26:08 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: The void is filled
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Oh, I could not resist. For those are open to an introduction to one aspect of traditional--and I might add *real* (as opposed to Sunday morning on TV)--Christianity that we can all relate to, check this:

www.credenda.org/issues/v...em10-2.htm

You'll probably be surprised. But you won't know unless you go.

Also, in the realm of "Christian music" (I hate that term; it's music music), you all owe it to yourselves to check out Phil Keaggy's music, especially you guitarists. Personally, I do not listen to "Christian music" or radio. Why? Because it mostly sucks. But Phil Keaggy is different. He is a virtuoso guitar player that happens to also have incredibly good taste. He is very eclectic, like Howe, playing both acoustic and electric in wonderful ways. His styles range, but he does tend to favor more of a pop sound, in a complex, interesting, Yes-like way. Unlike Howe, Keaggy has a pure, awesome voice that kicks ass. I recommend "Time" 1 & 2 (anthology), or "Phil Keaggy" (self-titled, 199 or his latest "Inseparable" (1999), among many others. Phil Keaggy has been around a while; he used to warm up Yes back about 30 years ago in his band Glass Harp! Check www.philkeaggy.com

Okay, I'm done. Back to Yes...

Children of Light, don't be afraid


Poodeeo
Member
(10/24/00 6:29:41 am)
| Edit | Del re:Re: The void is filled
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I do not believe that this is "a stupid thread", for learning & healing has occurred here. And relationships are where healing and learning takes place. We don't find it in our cars, houses, money, drugs, jobs or anything else that is outside of us. So, while some of us may agree to disagree, it doesn't mean it's stupid. And while some may feel that I have been attacked for what I have written, that is not the case because I can only ALLOW myself to be attacked, based upon my perception. And I don't share that perception, any more than Jesus shared that perception of those that killed him. To say "brother, I forgive you" doesn't mean "ok, I'll forgive for what you did TO me(you screwed up, but I'll forgive you)", rather it means I forgive myself for perceiving that you did something TO me. The former definition only serves to perptuate the ego based idea of separation, of "we/them". The latter says that you can't hurt me, only I can hurt myself. For Love is all there is, and all else is illusion, non existent.

I have never used "right" and "wrong", for they are part of the illusion as well. Only the PURPOSE you give something matters. Are guns wrong? Are the Jews right? Are the Palestinians right or wrong? Is a particular path right or wrong? I cannot say, because one cannot judge on the level of form.

We never left eden, we are in heaven with God, but we choose to dream a dream of separation. God does not believe in sin,guilt or separation, because to do so would be to believe the illusion as real. When we all AWAKEN, we will realize that we never left Home.

This thread was a great idea, as a spin off of YES themes. YES music is timeless, and universal.

Nothing real can be threatened,
Nothing unreal exists,
Therein lies the peace of God.


jackalz
Member
(10/24/00 7:57:03 pm)
| Edit | Del The void and filling
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On the silent wings of freedom, where I offer myself midst the balancing of the sun. Thank you conall. Thank you poodeeo. On the passing light of Easing, have you seen you inside midst the being of Everyone. Where we are coming from or where we go, we only know we go around and round.

How can anyone not love Tormato?




conall
Member
(10/24/00 9:53:13 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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I'm glad you didn't feel attacked, because my intention was not to attack at all! Rather it was to defend the honor and truth of Christ Jesus (atmittedly, as I and billions of other souls throughout two millenia of Christendom see it). Don't you see? Jesus was not about attacking the money changers; he was about defending the Holy house and name of his father. This was, believe it or not, an act of love more than anything else. It was a similar situation, except that unlike Jesus, I assuredly sinned in my feeble defense.

As for new age bookstores, I did not mean that in a perjorative sense. If I were to take you up on your suggestion to find "A Course in Miracles," where would I find it? In Minneapolis, I would not go to "some" new age bookstore, I would go to my uncle's new age bookstore, which is called "Present Moment Herbs and Books," and I'm sure it would be there, mixed in with all the hundreds of other books of a similar nature. Will the real God (or path, or philosophy) please stand up? Which shelf are you on? The one book that he doesn't have is the Bible! (Why?)

I became a Christian Child of Light at about 26. Before that I used to frequent his shop, buying such books as "The Mystical Christ" (gnostic), "The Essene Gospel of Peace" (Essene), etc. I used to hang out at the Meditation center here in Mpls, and do yoga classes, and listen to Hindu guys speak over vegetarian Sunday brunches. I've been there! I think I have enough of a picture of "A Course" with your eloquent synopsis.

My "stupid" comment may have been stupid. Sorry. I am frustrated. But it is frustrating, as I tried to express, when two visions of reality collide in a God with the same name. As they say, you can't argue politics or religion. Thus the comment.

Btw, my mother also has an incurable form of cancer called multiple myloma. We have prayed like crazy for her over the last year as her chemo therapy failed and actually ruined her ability to produce white blood cells. In the last three months though, a new drug has been found that can at least control it. It is effective in like 40% of people, and we just found out that it is working for her! Is prayer effective? We like to think so, but who knows.




yesman90125
Member
(10/24/00 10:37:16 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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i was wanting to get back to the thing poodeo quoted
nothing real....etc.
it is a basic philosphy throughout most reigions
that this life is to some extent an illusion
and whats real is love....
i dont see it exatly like that
whats real is truth truth is god
love is an aspect of god and of truth
but not the only aspect of god
god by definition must be truth (god=truth)
we've talked about this life , this illusion being the seperation from god
we've talked about hel being the same a seperation from god
again since god is all encompasing we are not truly seperated
but we believe we are so thats the illusion
the seperation
what is real is god and that cannot be destroyed
the illusion can be theroeticly destroyed
the question in my mind is who created the illusion
us or god?
CHILDREN OF LIGHT, DON'T BE AFRAID


Poodeeo
Member
(10/24/00 11:55:44 pm)
| Edit | Del RE:Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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Con, as a physician, I am too familiar with mom's illness. Glad to hear she's responding.
Please take no offense on my views to follow:
A long time ago, I think it was your 1st post on this thread, you gave a little of your history, and it really struck me how similiar it was to mine. I was raised Catholic, went to their schools for 12 years and got a damn good education, despite the nuns with the steel rulers and coaches with 2x4's ready to whack you at any moment. Catholisizm may be fine for many, but as you know, they think they're the "best" Christians. And all I see around me is Christian group vs Christian group, this religion against that, and on and on and on. No one listens to the REAL message in their religion. I have been a meditator for years. My wife and I spent a month in India several years ago, attending an international conference on Yoga therapy. There were scientists, doctors, Phd's, Sri's, and the Dali Lama, from all over this planet. No one cared what religion you followed, it was secondary. And when a young Indian girl we met sat in front of a statue of Krsna & Arjuna in the chariot, every evening before sunset and chanted for a hour the 100's of name's of God, one could never say this person didn't know the ONE. And she will not go to hell or miss out on heaven because she's not a Christian. So my thing is that western religions condem, judge and that's just not real love. The Bible, undeniably is loaded with contradictions and therefore mostly an ego based text, EXCEPT the sermon on the Mount and the prodigal son parable. It's been translated over and over. Has anyone ever read a King James passage and then compared it with a modern bible? Your in for a surprise! Everybody loves to use Jesus's "supposed" outburst in the temple to say that anger is "ok". Well I doubt it really occured that way, and as far as I remember, it's only in the John gospel, whose authenticity has been challenged in many, many texts over the years. Anyway, I've said too much.

"A Course in Miracles" is in ANY bookstore, right with all the Bibles, and it's in 20+ other languages. It has nothing to do with outward miracles and such. The miracle is the shift in perception. It's really a text and workbook on spirtuality from a psychological methodology. It's intense, that's all I can say.

yesman: The basis of the Course is that WE made the illusion. If you think about it, why would and how could God create this illusion of fear? Leaving eden is nothing more than the birth of our ego and our perception of separation. We were and still are one Sonship because in God's mind, we're still in heaven, only dreaming this dream of a world. And the Sonship is dreaming that we all have bodies, that we all have pain, etc. You are not your body. ( I suspect the ego's birth was the big bang). So that fear led to guilt, and it's the guilt that we all cover up in our lives. that's why we're scared shitless of God. It's not his "wrath", he has no wrath. When you dig deep and start looking at that guilt, shit hits the fan. Anyway, the clincher is that none of this really happened. that's Jesus' point in the course. We're the dreamers of the dream and have but to AWAKEN. BTW, the Course is also an illusion, but it's the illusion that ends all illusions, so it says. So we're dreaming, and we have these tools, these spiritual paths, and in the end, we all will leave the dream and go home together.



yesman90125
Member
(10/25/00 8:00:00 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: RE:Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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i guess i feel as if god created the illusion in order for us to find him
a game of hide and seek so to speak.
overcoming the illusion is the return to god.
dying and being reborn is an illusion
but a nessisary part of the greater illusion.
with the intent to have us "the sonship"
eventually return to "Eden"
or to return to God .
that is my answer to why would God create the illusion.
as to how could god create the illusion.
God created everything
therefore directly or indirectly created the illusion.

on another note
while I do see a great deal of trouble between various christian sects and among all religions. I see even more cooperation overall. of course its only my experience, yours could be different.
MY EYES SEE THE COMING REVOLUTION


Poodeeo
Member
(10/25/00 10:34:47 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: RE:Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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My question would then be: If God=Love=only that which is real, why would he create an illusion filled with fear, anger, hate and death? Are we just puppets on a string for his amuzement?

Consider another way:
Almost all people believe that they are physical and psychological selves, living in a material universe that pre-existed their coming, and which will survive their leaving. The difficulty in understanding that this is NOT the case lies in the fact that we are so identified with our individual corporal selves, that it is almost impossible to conceive of our existence on the level of the mind that is outside the world of time and space.

When the thought of separation SEEMED to occur, the Son of God seemed to fall asleep and dream a dream, the contents of which are that oneness became multiplicity, and that the non-dualistic Mind of Christ became fragmented and separate from its Source, split into insane fragments at war with themselves. These fragments projected outside the mind a series of dreams or scripts that collectively constitute the history of the physical universe. On an individual level, the serial dramas our ego personalities identify as our own personal lives are also projections of our split and fragmented minds.

"The world you see is an illusion of a world. God did not create it, for what he creates must be eternal as Himself."


yesman90125
Member
(10/27/00 5:36:00 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: RE:Re: re:Re: The void is filled
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i didn't mean to imply that god=love=only that which is real
the implication was that god = truth
love and that which is real (imo) are only aspects of the greater whole. fantasy and illusion are also a part of that.
i mentioned the cosmic game of hide and seek
allow me to qoute the source of my theory
" Since God is perfect and this earth is not a necessity for his evolution, it is therefore a sort of hobby to God. For example, there are two kinds of artists: one type is the commercial artists who makes art for pay;and the other type is one who creates gossamer wings of art with nomarket value, simply for the enjoyment of it. Now we cannot think of God as commercial,for he has nothing to gain from his art of creation. similarly, wealthy people sometimes take up special hobbies that are expensive , because they can afford them. I once met a man in Cincinnati; he had a big farm as his hobby. When I visited there as a guest , I said "your farm is not paying for itself , is it?" he replied " thats right . this egg I am eating cost me 90 cents. I could get one at the market for two pennies."
So the world is Gods hobby. But it is not any fun for those who are suffering in it. I often say to The Lord "If you wanted a hobby, why did you create pain and cancer and terrible emotions as part of it?" Of course I am not in the world to dictate to The Lord. I know that . But I humbly fight with him. He laughs at me, and says "In the last chapter all will know the answer to these questions."
Well I know the answer, but I argue on behalf of those who don't : "It may be a play to you, Lord,but it is misery and death to those who dont know it's a play. Two people marry and think that they have found perfect love, and then one of them dies--what a tragedy. Or someone who has made lots of money in the stock market thinks he is happy and then the market crashes, and in despair he jumps out of a window-- how terrible. And in the sense traps of sex, wine and money there is temptation not only from outside but from within. How is man going to justify all of this? And why are there Gangsters and persons who are insane, and all kinds od dreadfull things going on,Lord? Why are there germs that kill so many people every year? If the bones of those who have died from disease were heaped together the pile would be as high as the himalayas; and yet it is a hobby to you, God. What about those who are victems of your hobby?"
And The Lord says, I have made all men in my image. If you know you are a part of me, you can live in this world and enjoy it as I do .
That is the ultamate answer
We do not see the world as god sees it.

thats enough for now more to come in our next exiting episode so please stay tuned dont touch that dial
your listening to Yestalk theology spillover with
yesman 90125
and now a word from our sponser
MY EYES SEE THE COMING REVOLUTION


yesman90125
Member
(10/27/00 6:06:26 pm)
| Edit | Del and now back to the show
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We can say that God made this earth not only as a hobby , but also because he wanted to make perfect souls that would evolve back to him. He sent them under the cloak of delusion, or Maya, but endowed with freedom. That is the greatest gift of God. He has not denied mankind the free choice that he himself has. He has given man freedom to be good or evil, to do exactly as he pleases - even to deny God. Both good and evil exist but noone compels you to be evil unless you choose to practice evil; and nobody compels you to be good unless you want to be good. God created us with the ability to exercise his gifts of intellegence and free choice by which we can choose to go back to him. God certinly means to take us back when we are ready to go. we are like the biblical prodigal son, and God is continuously calling us to come home. though all created things belong to God there is one thing he hasn't - our love. when he created us , he did have something to attain, and that is our love. We can withhold that love or we can give it too him. He will wait endlessly until we are ready to offer it to him, until the prodigal son returns home.
this is the meaning of the parable of the prodigal son as told by Jesus.
LOOK UPON THIS LIFE AS JUST A PICTURE YOU ARE PAINTING


jackalz
Member
(10/28/00 10:31:41 am)
| Edit | Del re;re;er;er
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These past few posts are a little too 'God is masculine' and 'God is human-centered' for my taste. Also, it kind of goes back to the I-know-what-God-is-all-about feeling, which repulses me. But the Yes quote was right on.

LOOK UPON THIS LIFE AS JUST A PICTURE YOU ARE PAINTING...Live within the power, you can be the strength is.

Whether true or not, it has a good placebo effect to healing, which can be very important, IMO.




yesman90125
Member
(10/28/00 6:41:02 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: re;re;er;er
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well I think the intent isnt to present God as masculine
it is just something to use for want of a better term(him, he, etc.).
the quotes were from
Paramahansa Yoganandas' "journey To Self Realization"
the best way i could find in answering poddeos' remarks.



LOOK UPON THIS LIFE AS JUST A PICTURE YOU ARE PAINTING


jackalz
Member
(10/29/00 10:12:43 am)
| Edit | Del Talk-talk is easy
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Again, my premise is that God is All, and I try to only write from that perspective. So aspects of God are exactly what you are saying, plus, aspects of God are, also, the exact opposite. Similar to Physics way of explaining waves and particles, sometimes the equation suggests one or the other as the motivating force, all depending on the testing and verifying. And, of course, the quantifying and qualifying, in time, lead to more and more truth about the All, Everything, light and dark, reality and illusion, free and destined, infinity and right here right now.

I guess I don?t like the third person reference to God, him, her, it, because that separates us from the One-ness. But, I understand that there is an aspect of God that is separate, so I don?t know why it bothers me, just that it does. The void wanted to be filled.

Proclaimed in everything I write, you're the light burning brightly.
(Onward, Tormato)



Poodeeo
Member
(10/31/00 1:54:58 pm)
| Edit | Del The M/F thang
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Certainly, the function of all religion, by definition is to "link back". But, finally, finally, all metaphors will have to be dropped, as they limit us. God is a word, a thought, but its reference is to something that transcends all thought. If we didn't believe the illusion of separation, we'd have no need for such a word. Using "him" or "her" is only for conveinience' sake. I think we all understand and accept that. Why get hung up on it?

"What happened to this song we once knew so well
Signed promise for moments caught within the spell
We must have waited all our lives for this
Moment moment"





Seryn
ForumOp
(11/1/00 9:18:53 am)
| Edit | Del re;re;er;er;re;re;er;er
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Hmm, I'm looking at this keyboard and it says WARNING!: to reduce risk of serious injury to hands, wrists or other joints, read Safety & Comfort Guide. That's kinda funny, sense this is a public computer. And it the world so sad that you actually have to warn people not to type like an idiot if you don't wanna be sued. *sigh*

It looks like this thread has taken off again. Good. Because I wanted to share something really really disturbing with you. A friend of mine shared her religious beliefs with me the other day in a heated debate. Me, her,this partier girl that acts blond, but really has a good heart that hasn't been guided in the right direction, and another friend were sitting around with nothing to do. Somehow religion came up. At some point my friend, Lori, said that she believed that mental illness was demon posession. This really upset me because my dad has severe depression and he believes that he "blasphemed the holy spirit" some ten years ago. He always thinks he cannot be forgiven and that he has an evil spirit. For years I have been trying to explain to him that Jesus is forgiving and that if he did blaspheme that he is forgiven after all the suffering he has went through. And I certainly do not believe in demons. I tried to explain to Lori that demon posession was the only way the people in the Bible knew how to describe sickness. Even epilepsy was considered to be demon posession. Now, we know that there are biological causes linked mainly to heredity to cause these things. And my dad had been very sick before he ever "blasphemed" (His dad was forcing him to get baptised one night after he had been working out in the sun for 12 hours surveying. My dad did not feel that he needed to be baptised for the 4th time in his life and got a little resentful. He did get baptised again though and now thinks that his resentment caused him to lose the holy spirit during the baptism. I too have the same anxiety/depression disorder he has and know that his thoughts are pure fiction that has been caused by a chemical imbalance, not demon posession.) Lori knows my dad because she was a receptionist at the mental health center so she knew that she was hurting me when she said this. (I do not know what a destructive personality like hers was doing at the mental health center) I asked her if she thought my dad was posessed and she said that she thought he probably was. She said that blaspheming was also the unforgivable sin...I was almost in tears. I told her that she was thinking very old-fashioned. I told her that I had been diagnosed with anxiety and depressive disorder just like my dad. I also added that I was taking medicine and that it was doing very well to combat it. I asked her how come medicine helped if it was simply demon posession. She replied that "some mental disorders are chemical" By this time the partier girl, Marisa, was totally scared to death. Then I told Lori that I did not think that everything in the Bible was true because the only perfect anything in existance was God and that the Bible was written by humans so it could not be perfect. She totally thought I was off my rocker! She started quoting "the word is God, God is the word" but that just took us in a circle. Because that quote is from the imperfect Bible in my opinion. Of course there are many parts of the Bible that are true and are the word, but not everything in that book is the true word. Lori said she did not think God was truly in my heart. Well, I've felt him in there way too much to be told something like that by any friend. Then I said something about people who were not Christian going to heaven and Lori told me they couldn't. Why not? If someone has dedicated their life to helping others and have suffered in this dedication, but no one has led him/her to the path of Jesus, is he/she not going to heaven? Jesus was all about love and opposed to hate, too beautiful to do that to anyone. I believe that anyone truly trying hard to do what is right will be forgiven and sent through the gates of Heaven. Lori just replied that God would not come back with that kind of forgiveness, that he would come back in wrath. I asked her how anyone so loving as Jesus could come back in wrath and she replied using Jesus' anger in the temple. She was impossible, but I realized that this was all bad because I looked at Marisa, this girl who could be guided down either path: that of a non-believer or a believer of Christ and saw that she was frightened by all of this. She is at such a delicate time where the right words could turn her into a child of Christ or the wrong ones into a wild, do what ever shes wants because God is mean kinda person. Marisa started to ask how you felt God in your heart. She said she preyed and tried to do right and all Lori had to say was that if she kept doing drugs and getting her ears pierced that she would go to hell. I looked at Lori and said "That was uncalled for. You do not KNOW that." I told Marisa that she did not have to worry, that Jesus was always watching her and that she would feel him one day. I told her just to look for it and forward to it, but not to push it to come. I did not know what else to say. Marisa is wild, but she is a good good person. She does not hurt others, just herself, and I believe that that is much more important.

Well, I do not know what to think about that debate we had. I kinda hope that you all will have some comfort or advice. I hope that the things I said were not driving Marisa away. I tried to explain that Jesus was love not wrath, no matter how the Bible made things sound at times. And for someone to actually think that my wonderful dad is demon posessed and unforgiven made it very hard for me to show love at that point, but tried very hard. I had to try real hard to keep that from knocking on my faith. I was mad at the Bible at that point.

Anyway, one other thing... i think this thread is wonderful. It has helped me grow closer to God, something I need right now. And it has really brought us closer together and has made Yestalk a really hot messageboard. I do think it is related to Yes because Yes did a lot of searching for God and it is obvious in their lyrics. I believe that the members have probably had talks just like this themselves. Who knows?

Be Forever


Poodeeo
Member
(11/1/00 1:48:15 pm)
| Edit | Del re;re;er;er;re;re;er;er
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Wow, Seryn, you have some powerful convictions. How refreshing to also see your openness! I only have a minute here, so just remember this:

The illusion must be brought to the Truth. Most people bring the Truth to the illusion, and therefore remain in darkness. This is a universal idea, not bound to any religion. So in other words, we must bring the darkness to the Light, to uncover it, not the other way around, where the Light gets covered up & distorted to suit our ego mind.

"Truth is a simple place, here for us all to see"


conall
Member
(11/3/00 12:51:46 am)
| Edit | Del Re: re;re;er;er;re;re;er;er
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Hi Seryn,

Thanks for sharing. The gospel of Jesus Christ is really very simple. It has nothing to do with with "illusions" or any other such non-sensical things. It has to do--first of all--with the incredible beauty, majesty, power, and love of God. The short way of describing this is that God is "Holy." And as you have just described in your conversation, we humans ain't (to put it lightly). Check yourself, check your history books--this is no illusion, it's an incontrovertible fact.

You see, the holiness of God and our incredible unholiness do not mix, not in the least. The Bible says that if we would look upon God, we would perish in our fallen state. Looking at God is akin to looking at the sun: it's painful and really not possible--right now. We are filthy rags, saturated with sin. That's where Jesus comes in. Of course, he is the second person of the Godhead. But the really special thing about him is that he walked the earth as a human--just like you and I. He knows what we are going through; He knows our trials and temptations and fears because he experienced them himself!! The big difference is that though he was tempted to sin like we do everyday, he didn't. That makes him able to cleanse us and make us presentable to the Holy Father if we just trust and rely on him to do this now and in the future.

That's the gospel in a nutshell, but you miss it if you do not understand the concept of holiness and sin. Btw, Jesus got angry at more than money changers. He also reserved some very special disdain for the Pharisees who were hypocrites. Jesus could not stand hypocrisy; yet he embraced the *repentant* woman at the well (and many other sinners) in soul-melting love.

As to your father's predicament, there is some verse in the Bible that talks about blaspheming the Holy Spirit as being the "unforgivable sin." I believe the Bible is inspired by God and thus true from beginning to end, but I also believe that it is very symbolic at times, using metaphor and other devices to get at the truth. I think that verse that your father is hung up on is probably not applicable to him. The main point of the gospel is that God will accept ALL who come to him via his beautiful, loving and holy son Jesus. It sounds like your father is in his loving hands. Tell him not to worry!

Btw, I believe in colds, flus, and various forms of mental illness. They are not illusions! This world is indeed fallen and those illnesses are the manifestations of it. Mental illness is particularly awful because it involves the mind, but it is illness nonetheless. I will pray for you and your father.
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