Same-Sex "UNIONS"



Postby ANDERSONG » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:27 am

I continually find myself thankful that I live in a country like Canada. This just happened today:

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041209-003/page.asp

Those of you who are full of love a hope for all the different people around us, you are the ones truly blessed.
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:08 am

That's good news, Andersong! At least you guys have it somewhat easier than us. I hope it gets legalized everywhere else just as with the other places. Hopefully, one day America will see that gay marriages are not a bad concept and people grow to tolerate it, but unfortunately I'm saddened to think it just won't happen as long as Bush is still in office. We need a new president. I love my country, I just don't love our president, but that's just my opinion. Anyways, glad to hear your country is starting to come around a little bit on this "issue."
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:12 am

tardistraveler wrote:Just some musings - for the record, I DO support gay unions. I also feel that people's sex lives should be no one's business but their own, unless it's causing harm to another being.


Amen, Diane! Now, a few of us can actually see this, why the hell can't Bush see it that way?! I still just don't get it. This is a strange culture we live in!
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More Bush Bashing..Time to lock the thread!

Postby BE » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:56 am

Topo_drama80,

Stop bashing and blaming Bush!...The majority and the democracy of the people of the USA have spoken....No to the Homo!

Gays are human beings but must realize that they are very different and abnormal.They should stop trying to push their lifestlye on others and trying to make changes to fit in...They have a right to live the way they want to,but are the minority.This country is based on democracy and the majority rules!...
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:20 am

I wasn't bashing him at all. I think you misunderstood. I know that gays are the minority and everything, but it seems to me that you're bashing homosexuals. I know they are a minority. There are a lot of minorites in this country and in this world, but you just have to deal with them. They will never go away. They're not trying to push their lifestyle on us, it's just that tons of people finally started tolerating these people and stopped being so closed-minded and treating these people the way they deserve to be treated, like a human being. I'm sorry these people are not perfect. Nobody is normal. It helps to remember that. Nobody will ever be normal. Normal doesn't exist. Get used to it.
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:24 am

And furthermore, I don't see why this thread needs to be locked. This is nowhere near as extreme as the "No President Left Behind" thread. It's not extreme at all. I know we all have our views on things. It's something we have to deal with, even if we don't agree with it. Nobody will ever agree, plain and simple. I have respect for people and their views, but I just don't like it when people blow them way out of proportion.

Why can't gay people be free?!
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Well, I used to be a homophobe . .

Postby theproffet » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:37 am

I bring this up all the time with my gay friends here . . .

I'm honest--I grew up in a Bad Company, Ted Nugent, Southern Baptists thing! I was ignorant, really . . .

Of course now, I'm older . . . I've been around, and learned a bit . . .

I can't see any reason why two consesnsual adults can't arrange their legal and financial affairs in any way they see fit. Period.

Oh, and as an aside . . .

I'm old enough to remember when being a conservative meant that the goverment stayed out of your business . . .

Damn, you libratarians might be onto something . . .
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:40 pm

theproffet wrote:I can't see any reason why two consesnsual adults can't arrange their legal and financial affairs in any way they see fit. Period.

Oh, and as an aside . . .

I'm old enough to remember when being a conservative meant that the goverment stayed out of your business . . .

Damn, you libratarians might be onto something . . .


Unfortunately that time has changed for the worse. I'm glad to hear that you turned around and accepted homosexuals for who they are, human beings. That's cool. See, if you can get it then why can't the MAJORITY get it?!
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Postby ycantibu » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:57 pm

I think it's very interesting that he called for the thread to be locked because someone "bashed" bush, but there's no problem making hateful comments about the gay people on this board. Interesting, no?


topographic_drama1980 wrote:And furthermore, I don't see why this thread needs to be locked. This is nowhere near as extreme as the "No President Left Behind" thread. It's not extreme at all. I know we all have our views on things. It's something we have to deal with, even if we don't agree with it. Nobody will ever agree, plain and simple. I have respect for people and their views, but I just don't like it when people blow them way out of proportion.

Why can't gay people be free?!
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:00 am

ycantibu wrote:I think it's very interesting that he called for the thread to be locked because someone "bashed" bush, but there's no problem making hateful comments about the gay people on this board. Interesting, no?


Yes, ycantibu, very interesing indeed! I've never been afraid of gay people in my life. I have no reason to be afraid of them. I have a friend who is gay and I'm not ashamed.
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Postby yesireebob » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:45 am

BE wrote:Topo_drama80,

Stop bashing and blaming Bush!...The majority and the democracy of the people of the USA have spoken....No to the Homo!

Gays are human beings but must realize that they are very different and abnormal.They should stop trying to push their lifestlye on others and trying to make changes to fit in...They have a right to live the way they want to,but are the minority.This country is based on democracy and the majority rules!...


BE ... sweetie, that other thread was not locked because of the Bush- bashing. It was locked because certain contentious individuals continually crossed the line to member-bashing and endless pontificating that nobody really wanted to hear. And FYI, the last time I checked the Constitution, it still protected the fundamental rights of the individual as against the majority. That was the whole point of the founding fathers. This country was built on individual fundamental rights, the notion that the majority does NOT rule and may not persecute any minority. America was founded by people seeking escape persecution. Perhaps you would be more comfortable living in a nation where the majority rules and religious fanatics control the government. Where people get stoned for breaking the rules or exercising any form of critical thought. However, in this country, political dissension and freedom of (and from) religion is not only legal, but the heart of what makes democracy a reality. And according to the tenents of your religion, which you bandy about so much, you are supposed to love your fellow man and look to yourself before you cast stones at anyone else. After all, it is God's place to judge, not yours; your place is to love your fellow man. Think about your country and your religion, and then ask yourself if perhaps you might be just a little off base??

BTW
I have always been fascinated with Eastern religions, and have always liked the built-in justice of the notion of reincarnation. Ponder the scenario of coming back as gay man so that you can learn firsthand what it is you are judging...
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This thread.

Postby EricBliss12345 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:54 pm

You know, I've tried coming in here to post over the last several days, and have tried with all my heart to remain calm and mature while getting my point across.

I'm just gonna let it simmer for a few days, and let a few more ignorant comments slip through here so I really have some fire.
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Postby Roan's Lady » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:34 pm

In my opinion, some comments are so ridiculously ignorant that they are not worth responding to - energy-wasting on people whose views really don't warrant my energy in responding. I've got enough to do and deal with in my life off of this computer.
I know people have different takes on this. Eric, I thought you made a lot of very good points in your posts here without coming out to attack anyone personally. Maybe you see that as restraint - but I think that it elevates you above those who are quick to judge, insult, and otherwise offend.
And there will always be those people that, no matter what, cannot be convinced of anything different that what they believe. This in itself often isn't a problem. But if they can't at least acknowledge and respect other points of view, then any attempt at reasonable discussion with them is like talking to a block of cement. Futile!





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You know what I was just thinking about?

Postby EricBliss12345 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:47 pm

Republicans are on this big moral values, pro-war, anti-homosexual kick right now. Perhaps you guys should be reminded of the Pledge Of Allegiance.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Do you see that? INDIVISIBLE. We're all in this together. We are a nation of blacks, jews, homosexuals, whites, indian, european, etc. We are a nation. Nobody is above or below anybody. No matter how small the minority of people, that group is still equal to everybody else that resides in this country. Sure, it is a democracy and majority does rule, but why does the majority want to divide us further? Liberty and justice for all!
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:33 am

I've always wondered that myself, Eric. Some people just don't get it, sadly enough. Indivisible, that's the way it should be. I just wish some people could wake up and smell the coffee.
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Postby yesireebob » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:19 am

BTW, the "under God" part was not added to the pledge until the 50's.
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Postby ImstillYesmam » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:31 am

I've always wondered about ppl saying homosexuality is "abnormal" sooo, I looked up the word abnormal in the dictionary,

abnormal: a deviating from the normal or average : UNUSUAL, EXCEPTIONAL

According to this defination I'm abnormal too!!! And I'm not gay.
Theres a time, and the time is now, and it's right for me,
Theres a word, and word is love, and it's right for me. [:yes]
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:33 am

We're all abnormal, the way I see it. Who wants to be "normal" anyway? Normal is boring.

I was thinking about this. I remembered on World AIDS Day I was watching this program on MTV2 (even though I don't care for that channel very much anymore) and they showed some footage about Pedro Zamora who was one of the 1994 San Francisco cast members of The Real World. He was a gay man who had died from AIDS hours after the last episode of that season was aired in late 1994. He was somebody who I admired because instead of living in fear, he carried on with his life, talking to schools and various groups about AIDS and about his dealing with the disease. He was just a regular who lived his life like everybody else and he managed to meet his partner Shaun while living in the house with the castmates. I remembered the episode where they had a commitment ceremony and I almost cried when I saw that episode. I was just so happy for the both of them because they really loved each other and were there for each other. I was not offended at all from what I saw. What I saw was two people who were in love with each other, exchanging their vows and their rings. It just goes to show that there is nothing wrong with two people of the same sex getting married. Pedro had a lot of fans all around the country and even the world and I was proud to be a fan of his. I even cried when I found out that he died. He was such a great, lovable guy who didn't deserve to go yet. I can't believe it's been over ten years already. Time really does fly.
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Postby CoinsAndCrosses » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:20 am

yesireebob wrote:So, BE, exactly when did you chose to be heterosexual? Do you really think that people choose a lifestyle that is difficult at best, wherein they are spurned, reviled, insulted, denied fundamental rights, and most egregiously of all, "forgiven" by pompous, self-righteous Christians? Right.


I'm fairly conservative and choose to work in television news. Yes, I'm crazy!
:-) I'm helping bring diversity to the newsroom. haha!
So it's been pretty difficult having to have my views spurned, reviled, insulted, fundamental rights denied (denied in word at least - a large majority of my co-workers are always saying the government should control my money and take my gun away etc) and then hearing them make fun of and look down their noses at those "pathetic" Christians all day. Strangely, I still chose to be in news.
The argument that people would never choose to do something that brings them ridicule has never made much sense to me. I'm proof that people DO choose to do things that put them in the path of ridicule and disdain.
I've picked a career I enjoy, but knew it would put me in an atmosphere that's sometimes hard to deal with.
Therefore, can't a person chose to be homosexual even though it could put them in an atmosphere that's sometimes hard to deal with?
Just wondering...chris
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Postby CoinsAndCrosses » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:59 am

[quote="tardistraveler"]Not that I'm advocating bestiality, but it struck me that this is the same argument that some use against GAY marriage - "everyone knows that you can't marry your own sex . . ." et al . . .

I can understand legal restrictions against marrying people who are close relatives, due to the risk of genetic malformations in the children. But, I'm sure there ARE people out there who fool around with their family, whether it's legally sanctioned or not. Ditto animals.

If gay unions are sanctioned, does that open another can of worms? What about multiple-partner relationships?[quote]

I believe the "can of worms" thing is why a lot of people are against gay marriage. I've read comments on this thread about how we shoudn' t tell people who they can love etc and that gay people just want the same marriage rights/benefits etc that straight people have. But not restricting marriage to one man, one women will open a huge can of worms for our legal system. It will definitely be a field day for lawyers. If you say one gay man can marry another gay man because they love each other then what argument can you use to say two brothers can't marry each other. Who even says two men must be gay to marry each other? Who says a father can't marry his own daughter, they really could love each other couldn't they? Who even says love must be involved for marriage to occur? What argument is there against one man simultaneously marrying two, three or any number of women? Who says three men can't be married to six women? Or any combination of men, women, relatives, ages etc. Some will say relatives can't marry each other because they could have genetically malformed children. Who says that having children is a requirement of marriage? A lot of groups have watched the debate over gay marriage with interest knowing that it could indeed give them the foot in the door, so to speak, that they need to promote/legitimize their lifestyle choices. NAMBLA(North American Man/Boy Love Association), polygamist groups,those in polyamorous groups and others. Many of the legal barriers that keep these groups on the fringe of society will be demolished if gay marriage is legalized. I think this was in the back of minds of many voters this election. Is heterosexual divorce rampant? Sadly, yes. But, many still believe that marriage consisting of one man and one women is still the best standard for society and they'll vote against any threat, real or perceived, that challenges it.
I don't see how a state or country that says two gay men can marry can put restrictions on the marriage of say two sisters, a father and a son, an uncle and a niece, four men and seven women, one woman and seven men etc. Would we not be making moral choices for these people and restricting who they can love/marry etc. It would seem that if gay marriage is approved then wouldn't it be equally wrong to put other limitations on marriage... just playing devil's advocate here.
I just think this would create chaos across the board...chris
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Postby Roan's Lady » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:34 pm

CoinsAndCrosses wrote: The argument that people would never choose to do something that brings them ridicule has never made much sense to me. I'm proof that people DO choose to do things that put them in the path of ridicule and disdain.
I've picked a career I enjoy, but knew it would put me in an atmosphere that's sometimes hard to deal with.
Therefore, can't a person chose to be homosexual even though it could put them in an atmosphere that's sometimes hard to deal with?
Just wondering...chris
I don't think a person "chooses" to be homosexual, simply because I consider my own heterosexuality not one of choice. I was born this way. I don't think homo- and heterosexuality can be classified under the same category as bestiality and incest - for several reasons - two being that the latter two are "activities"]not[/i] an intrinsic part of an individual, and not what we were born with the tendency to engage in.
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:31 pm

Roan's Lady wrote:I don't think a person "chooses" to be homosexual, simply because I consider my own heterosexuality not one of choice. I was born this way. I don't think homo- and heterosexuality can be classified under the same category as bestiality and incest - for several reasons - two being that the latter two are "activities"]not[/i] an intrinsic part of an individual, and not what we were born with the tendency to engage in.


I, too, don't believe that a person "chooses" to be gay or straight. This may seem as a cliche to some people but it is genetic. Most gay people can't help it if they are gay. It's just natural for them. They're born that way. Nobody can force a gay man to be straight. Nobody can force a straight man to be gay, but some straight men are curious and some do become gay, just as a choice to them. It's just a part of life. Some are born homosexual, some are born bi-sexual and obviously the majority of us are born straight as an arrow.

Marrying into the family, whether it be two brothers marrying each other, two sisters marrying each other, brother marries sister, father marries daugher, etc., has nothing to do with real marriage because they're already family by default. I'm not trying to open up a can of worms, I just think it should be accepted into today's (and the future's) society that two people of the same sex should be able to marry, no matter what any closed-minded people say or think.
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Postby yesireebob » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:00 am

It is not just a matter of who you have sex with; it is a question of identity. People are born SEXUAL and can have sex with darn near anything that moves under the right circumstances, whether straight or gay. However, that does not resolve the issue of sexual identity, which I believe is inborn. Growing up, we had family friends whose youngest son was never like his brothers; since babyhood, he always gravitated toward the girl stuff, his friends were girls, and when he came out as an adult, no one was surpised. His parents were not pleased, but they could not deny what they already knew to true his whole life. I know gay men who tried having heterosexual relationships, even marriage with kids, in an effort to fit in with family/religious expectations. But in the end, to quote Popeye, they have to say "I yam what I yam." It's not like choosing a career, which you are later free to abandon if the going gets too tough. You cannot change or run from who are are. It is not a choice. Just because someone is capable of heterosexual sex does not make them a heterosexual, anymore than someone who experiments with homosexual sex is ipso facto a homosexual. And I have always found it fascinating how otherwise vehemently homophobic men are nonetheless very turned on by two women getting it on. A rather constant theme in men's magazine and porno films, in fact. Hmm. So homosexual sex is ok for the tittilation of heterosexuals, but not between consenting homosexual adults? And I emphasize adults, because clearly, sex with children is just wrong no matter what your orientation. And it is demeaning to lump homosexuality in with pedophilia, bestiality, or any number of predatory sexual disorders that have nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the perpetrator. Historically, homosexuality has been with us as long as marriage between men and women. It is about time that it be recognized as being just as legitimate. And to say that marriage is only for procreation is silly; people who are infertile or are too old to have children get married all the time.
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm

That was quite a well-thought out and very eloquent post, yesireebob, and you managed to bring up some very good points, including that heterosexual men find it to be a turn-on for two women to get it on. No offense to any man, but it's just pathetic and stupid to think "Oh, man I love watching two hot chicks get it on with each other" and be totally against them being in a loving relationship. It's just a sick truth that we have to deal with. Hey, I love watching two women doing sexual things just as much as the next person, but I do not, whatsoever, see any problem with those two women having a loving relationship and and want to engage in marriage. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of mankind. Anyone who doesn't like it, I'm sorry, but you're just gonna have to deal with it for the rest of your lives. You can't change it.
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Some thoughts and responses:

Postby BE » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:25 pm

topographic_drama1980 wrote: Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of mankind. Anyone who doesn't like it, I'm sorry, but you're just gonna have to deal with it for the rest of your lives. You can't change it.


No,not since the beginning of mankind.God created man and woman,that started mankind!

But,yes Homos have been around for a long time but so has murder,stealing,cheating,lying,rape,incest.. and there all still wrong today...But in this very liberal society a little cheating,lying,stealing is ok and many murderers,rapists get lite sentences or go free!..and this has become acceptable?
Yes,we will have to deal with it the rest of our lives,but since less than 4% are gay it should not be a problem.

I have gay friends and I work with and have gay clients.I treat them as I would anyone else: fairly,equally and honestly.I may not agree with their lifestyle but thats their personal choice and business.I do not judge them,but someday they will be judged.

I dont believe in reincarnation,but I do believe in eternity.You get one life on this good earth and then judgement upon death...You get no second chances after your dead so make things right now when you do have many chances!

I have studied this issue for years and ask those who have posted here to do a little research and stop posting so much misinformation!...Can you answer any of these questions?
How are you born gay? Is there a gay gene?
When do some develop the feminine voice,limb wrist or flowing walk?
Why are identical twins not both gay later in life?
Would nature allow this as it would eventually end life since none is being replicated?
Why less than 4% of population gay?
Why do gay unions last an AVG 18 months only?
Why does God and some countries consider it a sin so severe it is punishable by death?
Why have so many gays returned to normal straight lives?
Why has no one "here" addressed the issue about "opening a can of worms" or the flood gates to all types of weird unions if gay unions where approved?
Why was the marriage amendment upheld in all 11 states where it was on the ballot and most by a large % ?
Mass is the only state to allow gay marriage and now their screwed because of their hurried decision...Follow that story!

Yes a person does choose to be a homosexual and can choose not to be!
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:32 am

BE wrote:No,not since the beginning of mankind.God created man and woman,that started mankind!

But,yes Homos have been around for a long time but so has murder,stealing,cheating,lying,rape,incest.. and there all still wrong today...But in this very liberal society a little cheating,lying,stealing is ok and many murderers,rapists get lite sentences or go free!..and this has become acceptable?
Yes,we will have to deal with it the rest of our lives,but since less than 4% are gay it should not be a problem.

I have gay friends and I work with and have gay clients.I treat them as I would anyone else: fairly,equally and honestly.I may not agree with their lifestyle but thats their personal choice and business.I do not judge them,but someday they will be judged.

I dont believe in reincarnation,but I do believe in eternity.You get one life on this good earth and then judgement upon death...You get no second chances after your dead so make things right now when you do have many chances!

I have studied this issue for years and ask those who have posted here to do a little research and stop posting so much misinformation!...Can you answer any of these questions?
1. How are you born gay? Is there a gay gene?
2. When do some develop the feminine voice,limb wrist or flowing walk?
3. Why are identical twins not both gay later in life?
4. Would nature allow this as it would eventually end life since none is being replicated?
5. Why less than 4% of population gay?
6. Why do gay unions last an AVG 18 months only?
7. Why does God and some countries consider it a sin so severe it is punishable by death?
8. Why have so many gays returned to normal straight lives?
9. Why has no one "here" addressed the issue about "opening a can of worms" or the flood gates to all types of weird unions if gay unions where approved?
10. Why was the marriage amendment upheld in all 11 states where it was on the ballot and most by a large % ?
11. Mass is the only state to allow gay marriage and now their screwed because of their hurried decision...Follow that story!

Yes a person does choose to be a homosexual and can choose not to be!


I numbered your questions in your post so I could answer them more easily.

First of all, I don't appreciate the fact that you feel as though you're stuck "dealing" with us. Even worse, you compare homosexuality to rape, murder, and incest. Two men or two women who are intimately involved poses a threat to nobody. Many whites felt the same when blacks were integrated into society, I presume, but we all know that being prejudiced is just not cool. Some still are ignorant and prejudiced, and those people are not cool.

By dating or engaging in sexual contact with a man, I am not causing you any personal harm. Dating, marrying, or having sex with a man does not harm society or anybody else's personal life. Why such a problem with it, BE? Oh, and it's not a motherfucking lifestyle for the millionth time. My lifestyle is probably quite similar to yours. I wake up, go to my day job, come home, listen to music, hang out, do housework and cook, sometimes have friends over, occasionally go to the bar with some buddies. If that is a gay lifestyle then most everybody leads a gay lifestyle.

I will now answer your questions, my friend.

1. Who knows how you are born gay or if there's a gay gene. I am not a scientist. All I know is that I have no control over how I feel. I was never attracted to women and attractions to men were always natural. I truly realized it around age 12. When those hormones started kicking in, I naturally thought about guys. Nothing to stop it. You either go with it or fight it and be miserable.

2. Maybe you should ask a gay man that developed the gay voice, limp wrist, and flowing walk. I never developed any of those traits, thankfully. But my eyebrows are perfect! :D

3. If one twin is gay, and one is straight, then they are not identical.

4. You speak as though homosexual practices are going to overrun our society and people are going to stop making babies! Of COURSE nature isn't going to allow that. However, if nature didn't have a place for homosexuals, then homosexuals wouldn't exist.

5. I believe the number is actually higher than 4%, but I could be wrong. Nature may only need 4% of the population of animal species (yes, ALL animals) to be homosexual. Whether it be for population control, or to look after the offspring abandoned by straight couples, I'm sure that there is a solid scientific explaination as to why only 4% of the animal population is homosexual. Like I said earlier, I am not a scientist so you'll have to ask one.

6. Who knows. Maybe it has something to do with the pressure of it not being as acceptable as a straight union, which is nobody's fault but everybody else's. It is much harder for a gay couple to "make it" the ways a straight couple would. Lots of straight couples can very casually mention their union, yet even in metropolitan areas like Philly, this would not be the case. My current workplace is a prime example of that. Having to keep things "in the closet" puts a tremendous burden on ones psyche. Thanks to religion and the viewpoints of man, it is a lot harder for gay couples to be completely acceptable in every facet of society, which is extremely unfortunate.

I know that when I first moved to Philly, the thought of coming out all over again scared the shit out of me. Why in God's name should I have to feel that way? I was absolutely terrified, working in a gay owned and operated restaraunt, to come out. It ate at me really badly, and I drank a lot to cover up how I was feeling. I made friends who thought I was straight, and was so scared I'd lose them if I said anything. It got to the point where I talked about chicks that I thought were hot and the whole 9 yards of straightdom, and the facade burned a deep hole in my spirit. I had several really serious mental breakdowns this summer over it. I'd sit at home and just weep, and normally, I'm fairly stable emotionally. Never had I felt so emotional and torn up over something in my life. I cried over everything. It was almost frightening. Do you think straight people react this way over their orientation when they relocate? Chew on that for a minute.

7. Why don't you ask God? I guarantee he'll tell you that he never meant for his word to be interpreted that way. Do you think the bible just dropped from the heavens? Do you think it hasn't been altered by the biased slant of man over the years? Answer no and you are a fool.

8. Where in the hell did you come up with this? There are some gay rehabilitation camps, and you know what, it just doesn't work. Most who try to convert to straightdom end up being miserable over their descisions and by the fact that they think God doesn't love them for who they are. This results in suicide and broken homes. Since we don't have nearly enough suicides or broken homes in our country, why not try to rehabilitate all the gays and make more?

I knew a girl in school who had a gay father. They had always suspected it. At age 50, he could no longer live the lie, and divorced his wife. Luckily, his children accepted it and he and his wife remained close friends. Not every story has a happy ending like that. Put yourself in my shoes and try living a gay life. I don't care what the bible tells you. I don't care what societies opinions are. Think of how it would be if you felt forced to be with one of your own sex and you felt you had to be with somebody of your own sex because that's what man's interpretation of the bible told you to be like. It would fuck you up. It would fuck you up royally, my friend. Why would you wish that upon me? I don't understand it. OK, maybe I just put words in your mouth. Maybe you do want me to live a good life and not have these worries. The way you word things, I'd think otherwise, but I'd like to think better of you.

9. I believe several have already.

10. A large percentage of the population are ignorant. Bush won the hearts and minds of the bible-thumping portion of the United States. He swindled Americans into voting for him based on moral issues, ones that bible-thumpers hold dear to their hearts. I find that sending large portions of America's young people to die in a war driven by oil and greed to be pretty immoral, yet nobody seemed to care about that. Isn't it funny, how in the state of Ohio, Bush won based on moral values when that state has lost more jobs during the Bush administration than anybody else? It's not a testament to the fact that people want a more moral country. They just can't think for themselves. It's enough to make me want to burn a bible. If your economy is so bad, why not go with the other guy (coincidentally, catholic) and stimulate the economy so families can have a better future for themselves and their children? Under Kerry's administration, I believe this would have happened. Kerry is not an immoral man. He is a catholic and a man of God. However, he does believe in the freedom of choice. If you don't belive abortion is right, then don't have abortions. If you don't believe gay marriage is right, then don't have homosexual relations. Everybody should have the right to do what they feel so long as it's not detrimental to society.

I will elaborate. Women who have rampant unprotected sex and are constantly getting pregnant, which is solved by abortion, is not cool with me. If you cannot support a child, don't engage in activities in which the potential conception of a child is possible. Wear condoms, take the pill. My friend Denise had an abortion. Her and her boyfriend were very much in love and very much committed to each other. Neither of them were in a situation where they could support the baby to have the best life it possibly could, and they made the descision to terminate the pregnancy. It would pain me to see them now with a two year old they could not support, and living off of government funds (taken out of yours and my paycheck) to support it.

And you know, maybe it was the fact that it was worded as "marriage." Like I said earlier, I also don't approve of gay "marriage." I believe a cival union, where no rights are compromised in comparison to straight marriages, is fair.
11. I will look into this. How are they screwed? Is there too high of a married population now?

And you say you may not judge gays, but that someday, we will be judged. You say it as though we will be judged in an unfavorable manner. By whom? God? I have no religious denomination, but I do believe there is a higher power. I believe that higher power created me with a purpose, and didn't create me as I am for no reason. There is no way to "right" this "wrong." Maybe the higher power DOES want me to try to fight the way I naturally am, but it looks like we aren't going to find out until we die, are we? Neither of us really knows for certain. You might think you do, but you don't. Until then, why not agree to disagree and help to make my life here a little easier.

Thank you

Eric
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:32 am

Eric, out of all the posts I've seen by you (and no, I didn't exactly look at all 2,160 posts) this is by far, the best one. You seem very smart and you have a good head on your shoulders. This post was very well put together. I can agree with not calling it a "marriage" but it's just like it. A civil union and a wedding are not too much different from each other. I don't believe that any gay man knows how they were born gay. It's just natural to them. Nobody can control it, not even the gay man. And I agree with you 100%, Eric, about the majority of the population being ignorant. It's people like that who like to control things too the way THEY want it. God forbid they don't get their own way! And like I said before the people that are ignorant towards homosexuals, whether male or female, the majority of them are homophobic. If they are not homophobic, then what's the problem?!!!! These people need to wake up and realize that they can't always get what they want (sounds like a song). Let's face it, everyobdy. Homosexuality can and will forever be a part of today's society, whether you like it or not! Eric, again, I commend you on such an elaborate, well-written post. I'm sure you put some heart into it, too. I'm not gay, but I can kinda understand where you're coming from with moving to a new idea and starting over again. Not really with the coming out part (besides you shouldn't have to be afraid to come out anywhere. It's who you are and the only one that can judge that is maybe not God, but somebody up there), but getting adjusted to a new place. A little over three weeks ago, I moved back here to Pottstown, which is where I lived for nearly two years and due to unfortunate circumstances I moved back to my hometown of Williamsport. It was kind of difficult for me to get back in the swing of things and get used to this near-Philly area again, but I pulled through. I didn't let my feelings get the best of me. And like you, I do wish for homosexuals to have a better and an easier-living life. I don't know about you, but I feel that it's only a matter of time when that day will finally come!
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Postby relayer4u » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:59 am

I would like to take this opportunity to suggest that we take an idea from the movie "Starship Troopers".

In the movie, to become a citizen and vote in an election, you must have served their country via a stint in the military for the priveledge.

In my mind this makes perfect sense, because if you're not willing to pay the price of freedom, you shouldn't have a say in who runs our country either!
Ray C. [:f3]

"This to just remind you, All is meant to be."
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Postby N2yes » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:33 am

topographic_drama1980 wrote:You seem very smart and you have a good head on your shoulders.


Damn, Topo, you don't know him very well do you?
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BTW

Postby N2yes » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:34 am

BTW, Ray, your point is well taken! I commend you, sir!
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