Terri Schindler-Schiavo



Postby psychopomp95 » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:38 am

relayer4u wrote:I would like just one of the "save Terri" folks to tell me what this poor fellow stands to gain from her death, aside from the relief of finally being able to carry out her spoken wishes? The parents are the ones that are dragging this out beyound what is right, imho.


What does he have to gain?? Possibly insurance policies, possibly a lawsuit against the company whose medication caused her to stop breathing (at least this is what I read as the cause of her brain damage, perhaps I was totally misinformed though). I hate to sound so cynical but there's potentially a LOT of money involved in either scenario!

Yes starvation and dehidration is tough to swallow, but if she said so, he MUST do it! If my wife let me down at the end I would be upset if we ever met again in Hell.....


If you believe in Heaven and/or Hell, then surely you must believe that your wife would KNOW the circumstances of a situation like this one, and she wouldn't blame you for not being able to end her life for her.
When it gets down to it, he has no WRITTEN proof. And I know of many situations where, yes, someone is dying and there is nothing that can be done - they are deteriorating so there is no real sense in forcing them to stay alive. But in this case, she IS alive - fully functional, no, but since we do we throw 'broken people' in the garbage? And there is no proof that she is deteriorating, either (well, now there is of course, for obvious reasons!!).
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one more thing

Postby yesman90125 » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:39 pm

[quote="relayer4u"]I would like just one of the "save Terri" folks to tell me what this poor fellow stands to gain from her death, aside from the relief of finally being able to carry out her spoken wishes? The parents are the ones that are dragging this out beyound what is right, imho.



Chris's reply ]
[color=royalblue]dude she isnt on life support

there are alot of people "living" in much worse circumstances
people that cannot feed themselves and are severely brain damaged
should we just stop feeding them all?

as to what is to gain fo rhubby millions -without a doubt life insurence -lawsuits etc.
but
I asked my wife what she would want me to do
if she were in such a state
she said Starve me

I wish I could go into this womans mind but I cant
I only know what I have to do
if the situation ever comes up in my life
Murder my wife

I think its awefull and I strongly disagree with her

but I will follow her wishes

and I will be a murderer---

contradictory Yes

I dont think the government or the population of the country should have anything to say about it
but when I have starved my wife I expect to spend my life in jail for murder

would I do it YES

would I agree with it?, NO!!!!!!
would I deserve to be jailed YES
murder is murder no matter what your motivation
even mercy. C

Yes starvation and dehidration is tough to swallow, but if she said so, he MUST do it! If my wife let me down at the end I would be upset if we ever met again in Hell.....
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Postby relayer4u » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:12 am

psychopomp95 wrote:What does he have to gain?? Possibly insurance policies, possibly a lawsuit against the company whose medication caused her to stop breathing (at least this is what I read as the cause of her brain damage, perhaps I was totally misinformed though). I hate to sound so cynical but there's potentially a LOT of money involved in either scenario!



If you believe in Heaven and/or Hell, then surely you must believe that your wife would KNOW the circumstances of a situation like this one, and she wouldn't blame you for not being able to end her life for her.
When it gets down to it, he has no WRITTEN proof. And I know of many situations where, yes, someone is dying and there is nothing that can be done - they are deteriorating so there is no real sense in forcing them to stay alive. But in this case, she IS alive - fully functional, no, but since we do we throw 'broken people' in the garbage? And there is no proof that she is deteriorating, either (well, now there is of course, for obvious reasons!!).

I was talking about my wife being able to end my life, not vice versa. I don't care if she has to smother me with a pillow, ala the Chief in "One Flew Over the Cukoos Nest", If I can't tell someone that I want to listen to South Side, they better know that I'd rather be dead!


Here's a link to a lot more details of the story, court documents being most interesting at this point:


http://www.terrisfight.net/
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Postby keric » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:56 am

psychopomp95 wrote:What does he have to gain?? Possibly insurance policies, possibly a lawsuit against the company whose medication caused her to stop breathing (at least this is what I read as the cause of her brain damage, perhaps I was totally misinformed though). I hate to sound so cynical but there's potentially a LOT of money involved in either scenario!


You really think, after the circus of controversy this has become, that this would ever go to court for a possible lawsuit. No way he ever brings this to court, and no way any jury awards him anything after this is all said and done.
For those that continue to refer to this as murder, I'll just respond from now on that those who would keep her alive against her wishes are torturers.
Interesting that all those in favor of the continued 15 year torture talk about the absence of written proof, but not one has said they would prefer to live like this for 15 years if the circumstances should arise. I've already said and will state it again, that I would want the tubes removed so my wife and son could move on with their lives.
Any torturers out there care to put it in writing that they want to live like Terri has, for 15 years.
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me, a torturer -Fuck That shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby yesman90125 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:26 am

keric wrote:For those that continue to refer to this as murder, I'll just respond from now on that those who would keep her alive against her wishes are torturers.
Interesting that all those in favor of the continued 15 year torture talk about the absence of written proof, but not one has said they would prefer to live like this for 15 years if the circumstances should arise. I've already said and will state it again, that I would want the tubes removed so my wife and son could move on with their lives.
Any torturers out there care to put it in writing that they want to live like Terri has, for 15 years.

well only Terri knows how bad her suffering is

I know that modern medicine can keep one comfotable and asleep
so I think your exagerrating alot

no body would want to live like that -true enough

and if youve ever been around severly disabled people
I would argue that in some cases we wouldnt want to live like that either

and I have worked for many years around ulzheimers patients who come up and say "Are you my son?"
many that cannot communicate nor control their bowels or bladder

I wouldnt want to live like that either -but millions of people do

I have been around sick and dying people very often over the last 10 years

and I have prayed they would die

but I wouldnt kill them

on the other hand if machines are keeping their heart pumping and lungs working etc
then I have no problem shutting off the life support

this just isnt the case here

by this standard everyone in a coma or real sick, retarded
or unable to eat on their own
should all be put out of their misery

everyone that has ulzheimers or advanced MS or some serious disease should be put out of their misery

I dont wish to play God
nor do I think anyone or any government entity should

A doctor takes an oath to do no harm
i think starving someone to death is harm

I dont think shutting off machines that pump your heart for you and breathe for you when your in a coma and brain dead is doing harm

I think this is a tragic story
but it gets a hell of alot of attention
while human bodies are stored away in comas with machines keeping them alive
machines that if they were shut off would cause death in a few hours or less
probably a few minutes

there is a difference

like I said if it were my wife

I would see that she was killed if those were her wishes
but I wouldnt starve her
Id shoot her or something that ended it instantly


I cant believe with all the pain medications and with Terris' condition that she is in intense agony or being tortured
I believe you are just being dramatic to expand or rationalize your opinion


I am No fucking torturer
and I severly resent that my love of life
and the sanctity of life
as well as my belief that life is a prescious gift from God
is being twisted into Calling me and others who share my opinion torturers
you can debate this all you want but dont you call me a torturer

If I were still a Mod Id shut this thread Down because of that kind of personal attack!

ther are some realities in this world
one of them is suffering
we all do it

I have done plenty of it
and still do daily

I have been in this position where I have had to shut down life support
in my life

it is the most difficult thing I have ever done

and I am still shellshocked from the whole experience

dont you call me a torturer EVER !
I dont care if life isnt precious to you
but to me God gives it and God takes it

not man
you presume to much
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Postby yesman90125 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:36 am

psychopomp95 wrote:I'm sickened by it... I hope you folks in the U.S. remember that one of the things Hitler did in the 1930's was convince people that killing retarded/disabled folks was the "humane" thing to do. If that seems extreme, well sorry, but it's a parallel all the same! Someone has basically gone and told Michael Schiavo that he can do the same...
It sickens me, too... I don't even wanna talk about it.
Your right about hitler Good point!!!!
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Postby yesman90125 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:41 am

psychopomp95 wrote:How is she brain-dead if she can still smile and laugh, and OBVIOUSLY acknowledges people??
yeah what about that? i have seen it with my own eyes and it doesnt look spliced together over the last 15 years it looks like 3 seperate intances of smiling recognising people etc. not the signs of a brain dead individual
they NEVER wake up!
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WRONG!

Postby yesman90125 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:55 am

keric wrote:He IS your proof. In law we have oral contracts that people are held to. They have to keep their word. That is what he is doing. Keeping his word to the woman who shared her most private wishes with him.
oral contracts are only legally binding if there is a witness or a reasonaBLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES that indicate the intent of those involved in the contract

since that doesnt exist
and the woman is not on life support or brain dead

this is a mute point
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Postby yesman90125 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:58 am

wild_westie wrote:I heard this as I watched Fox News. I don't usually watch that news outlet. Fair and balanced my arse. O'Reilly in one of his pompous statements said that we're keeping her alive at the tax payer's expense. Who the in the hell cares about that! He's a total bastard. :mad: Not to mention a sexually-harrassing pervert.
so..... your quoting information as fact from a source that you dont respect as valid
hmmmmmmmmm.
and O reily is a total other story
as id fox news
just your little Jab i guess
ok but irrelevant
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Postby psychopomp95 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:18 am

In answer to Keric's question: YES, if it happened in such a way, unfortunate as it may be, I would rather live than die (assuming Terri has not been in intense pain the whole way through - nothing indicates that she has). For all we know, there is plenty of activity still going on in her brain, but she simply can't communicate much of anything to the rest of the world. Does that mean it's not occuring? Hardly! And they say that her actions are little more than natural reflexes, but I think we forget how much all of us act on 'natural reflex' as opposed to concious thought. Maybe she's not capable of so-called 'higher thought' anymore (and I say that with a grain of salt - how would we know anyway??), but neither are a lot of animals, and we don't advocate them dying!
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I'd say . . .

Postby theproffet » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:51 am

Save everyone you love trouble--make out a living will . . .

Disconnect my tube, but slip in some good morphine on the way out . . .

Everyone is gonna die . . . Me, you , that guy in the Ramones . . .

Choice is the issue--it's funny that no one connects this to Hunter S . . .
"You like your life in a free form style, you'll take an inch, but you'd love a mile . . ."
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Postby Ed1909 » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:09 pm

She's free now. I hope it wasn't too awful for her :(
High vibration go on...
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Postby wild_westie » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:16 pm

Ed1909 wrote:She's free now. I hope it wasn't too awful for her :(

And will we ever know? I don't think so. :(
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Postby wild_westie » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:11 pm

I prayed this morning that God would take Terri away from her suffering. And he did. In 1984, I prayed to God that he would relieve my mom from her suffering- he did, just after I lifted my head from prayer. I was asked by doctors and nurses if I wanted to extend my mom's life. I chose not to. I was labeled a murderer by my step father. She died peacefully with just my sister and me in the hospital room. Prayers answered.

A year later, my step father died. I chose to let him be buried next to my mom. My family was livid. He was an evil man. I'm still catching hell from this decision. Do I regret it? No. I did it for his children. A simple act of kindness and forgiveness.

In each decision, I chose to take my feelings out of the equation. It's hell being in charge of making such tough decisions at such a young age.

Now, this family needs to mend their bitter feelings. And learn to forgive and forget. The release of these feelings purges one and allows the forgiver to go on to live a peaceful life.

Been there. Done it. But, on such a smaller scale. Boy, am I thankful for that.

This post may seem contrary to my earlier post. I posted that Terri's situation is murder. My situation was different. My mother had terminal cancer. But, I can't help but think that some of the events are parallel to some degree.

And now the parallel of Terri and the Pope. A message from on high?
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Postby wild_westie » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:45 pm

Just heard Terri's sister and brother's messages. They were lined with forgiveness. This is good.

They now will focus on those who cannot speak for themselves.

Must get that living will prepared. This is a huge message to all of us.
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Postby keric » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:09 pm

yesman90125 wrote:I believe you are just being dramatic to expand or rationalize your opinion


I am No fucking torturer
and I severly resent that my love of life
and the sanctity of life
as well as my belief that life is a prescious gift from God
is being twisted into Calling me and others who share my opinion torturers
you can debate this all you want but dont you call me a torturer

If I were still a Mod Id shut this thread Down because of that kind of personal attack!




Out of respect for Terri I'd like to shut down this topic as well. If you want to continue the points of this debate start a new topic and I'll answer your comments.
May Terri rest in peace now in the gentle hands of her God.
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Postby Roan's Lady » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:34 am

Out of respect for Terri and each other (for we are the ones reading and responding), let's simply refrain from turning this thread into a bashing of the viewpoint that is in opposition to yours. Sometimes we see words posted and have a knee-jerk reaction to them. Sometimes things are not as "personal", really, as you may be led to believe. Take a deep breath, count to ten, and imagine that the other guy likely has nothing major against you as a human being. Emotions are running high, and this is a hugely charged issue, but I don't see reason to lock this thread at this point. I have more faith in you all to sort things through on your own.
Keric, rather than start a new thread devoted to your debate, consider private messaging the involved party/parties.
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Postby yesman90125 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:52 am

keric wrote:If you want to continue the points of this debate start a new topic and I'll answer your comments.
.

what should I call my new topic ?



I still stand by ALL of my statements

and I am still outraged by the way you spoke

Its all well and Good to stop the debate
about Terri

but what about the next terri

beyond that
I am not Dead i have feelings
I care alot about what happens to my fellow man/woman


I was Extremely insulted

debate issues all you want and thats fine
be as passionate as you want and thats fine

refer to me as a torturer thats not fine

I think it confirms your lack or respect for the living

but I can defend myself AND WILL.

so now another new kind of government sponsered Murder
is ok

first the babies then the old and allways those without a voice to defend themselves

I dont know Terris' wishes
And I never proposed to know them

to para phrase I just felt if your going to err it should be on the side of life

something that maybe is food for thought

I can be volitile too
I know
but I sure wasnt personal or volitile with Keric

he referred to me ,
and I guess a few others as torturers -I think that sucks

so now out of respect for a dead person none of us knows

he refuses to answer my outrage
fine!
I wont be starting any new topics

answer me here -dont answer me at all- I dont really give a darn
I know I wont change your opinion

I just thought I had A right to express mine

I will certinly think twice about it next time

I keep forgetting how many insensitive people
there are in the world

Be proud! your the majority!

I hope you feel real good about it!



:mad:










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Postby yesman90125 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:43 pm

[quote="keric"]You really think, after the circus of controversy this has become, that this would ever go to court for a possible lawsuit. No way he ever brings this to court, and no way any jury awards him anything after this is all said and done.

right]
[color=red]and every other person that will pay him for his story.he will be set for life over this especially because of the international coverage it got

I bet he could write a book and it would debut as a best seller probably #1
I am not inplying that his is nessisarily his motivation
its probably love and mercy
but still It could be greed weather he set out to make money or not -he will
I also think the parents could sue -and if I was them I might
Id certinly consider it


For those that continue to refer to this as murder, I'll just respond from now on that those who would keep her alive against her wishes are torturers.


just wanted to reiterate what pissed me off so much
you have stated your opinion and I mine but I thought , up until this post we were debating an issue
not blasting each other personally
because we are not these people and we dont know what they feel or want
so you dont state facts and neither do I
just opinion
none of us has a monopoly on morality or the ultimate answers
we only have our intellect and emotions you crossed the line though I didnt call you a murderer you didnt make this decision
I am not a torturer I dont have control over this situation any more than you do
you owe me an appology
and everyone else you lumped in as torturers



Interesting that all those in favor of the continued 15 year torture talk about the absence of written proof,
well one must admit that the husband is slightly suspect but I never brought that up til now
he could bee 100% legit
It still isnt the same as shutting off life support
which I am in favor of
I am speaking To LAW and the hipocracy of things when we pull one persons feeding tube out and leave others in
I belive brain function should be the defining factor as well as the ability to breathe and have your higher life support functions operating like your heart beating etc. and Pain is certinly an issue but do we kill someone in pain

I am reaching for a definition of where mercy begins and steping in to Gods role begins
there must be a line and it must be black and white
Terris' experience should open that debate so that the laws can be clear
perhaps thats the reason for this and the attention it receives
but I dont agree with this decision obviously


but not one has said they would prefer to live like this for 15 years if the circumstances should arise.
no I wouldt Want To live in those circumstances
but millions do or in varying degrees of it
i am only trying to define where we draw the line
and if its unclear I am speaking to the definition of euthanasia
whats legally ok and what isnt
we shouldnt make the decision of Death especially when of terris three closest reletives 2 wanted the feeding tube in
and 1 wanted it out

I've already said and will state it again, that I would want the tubes removed so my wife and son could move on with their lives.

yeah its fine to say, but as wild westie put it very hard to do .
I dont believe that the scars from those decisions have allowed me to move on with my life -and certinly not my children who suffer 5 years later
my wife who fell apart emotionally everytime Terri was on the news
Ive pulled plug Ive told doctors not to revive
members of my family but I would never say Starve them
fortunately they all died within hours of the decision
NOT WEEKS!



Any torturers out there care to put it in writing that they want to live like Terri has, for 15 years.

I agree with Psyco pomp on this who wrote

"In answer to Keric's question: YES, if it happened in such a way, unfortunate as it may be, I would rather live than die (assuming Terri has not been in intense pain the whole way through - nothing indicates that she has). For all we know, there is plenty of activity still going on in her brain, but she simply can't communicate much of anything to the rest of the world. Does that mean it's not occuring? Hardly! And they say that her actions are little more than natural reflexes, but I think we forget how much all of us act on 'natural reflex' as opposed to concious thought. Maybe she's not capable of so-called 'higher thought' anymore (and I say that with a grain of salt - how would we know anyway??), but neither are a lot of animals, and we don't advocate them dying!"
I would add that since she did have brain function -and that is Measurable she was dreaming and living in a state of Simplistic awareness-further I dont think smiling and making eye contact with people is proof of any suffering beyond the obvious suffering of the severe disability she had
we also have lots of people who come out of vegitative states and recall people being there and talking to them feeling them holding their hand and not being able to respond in any way


My dad when he was dying was hallucinating for almost amonth until near his last day
and when I asked him about some of the hallucinations he said he
really felt as if he was on a cruise and got sick and was in the medical section of the cruise ship he said that felt as real to him as anything
and was a memory that was just like as if he really was on a caribean cruise
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Postby keric » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:43 am

You don’t want to let this drop out of respect for Terri, then fine. Let’s continue the debate. You think I’m being dramatic to expand or rationalize my opinion. I would say you are so outraged because you don’t like the look when you have to face what’s in the mirror. I’m the asshole here because I called those who would keep her alive in this state torturers, yet it’s fine for you to call this murder, thus making those who advocate his right to let her pass on murderers? Murderer vs. torturer; just who has the right to be agitated? You’d keep this girl in this living shell, that she said she didn’t want for herself, just so you won’t be uncomfortable. That’s not only selffish, it’s sadistic. This seems to be an extension of a current movement in this country. Say you are for families, stay out of the family’s business, unless it goes against your moral beliefs, and then you have every right to impose yourself on what should be a private decision. It’s sick that all these people feel they have the right not only to decide what this girl wanted, but to condemn and suppose all kinds of alternative reasons for why he came to this decision. Oh, he’ll be on Oprah….then he’ll write a million selling book,…..then he’ll direct the Terri movie,….then we’ll have Terriwood where people can all go and experience killing one another. It’s sad and it’s sick. For 15 years he’s tried to do one thing; keep a promise that he made to her. Who the hell are any of these people, from Randell Terry to Tom Delay to Jesse Jackson, to question what a husband and wife said to one another just because it goes against their personal beliefs.
This isn’t a question of what her quality of life is. It’s not a question of whether she has brain function, or if she can live another 50 years being fed through a tube. This is a question of what she wanted if she were to be in these circumstances. A person born severely retarded never had any chance to make the choice of what they would want. Obviously the right thing in that case is to protect them. Terri made her choice. You don’t like it, so you have to question it. Personally, she doesn’t have to answer to you, and neither should her husband. He’s been vilified for showing enough love for her to not walk away and let her remain in a state she never wanted to stay in.

Let’s see where all your arguments fall short.

1. What about the next Terri?

Well I think there were a lot of people asking the same thing years ago after the Karen Ann Quinlan case. Do you even remember her? Were there a rash of tube removals after her case? No. Time passed and no one even thought of her when this incident came to the attention of some right to live advocates.

2. Refer to me as a torturer and that’s not fine….I think it confirms your lack or respect for the living….so now another new kind of government-sponsored murder is ok.

So who insulted whom first? I’m the murderer because I believe he has the right to carry out his wife’s wishes. You get indignant because I turn the mirror back on you and you don’t like what you may possibly see. Keep up the right to life mantra, it doesn’t apply here. She asked him not to let her live like that and he did his best to keep that promise. You and no one else can say what she told her husband. Care for me to start questioning everything you and your wife decide in your lives?

3. To paraphrase I just felt if you were going to err it should be on the side of life.

What err? This is what he said she told him. The err was for anyone else to get in the way of what a wife and husband agreed to in the privacy of their home. Is that the smaller, less intrusive government that people rail about wanting?

4. …but I sure wasn’t personal or volatile with keric. He referred to me, and I guess a few others as torturers.

I tried to find your name in my posting and I couldn’t, so we come back to, those of us that advocate his right to carry out her wishes were OK to be called murderers, but hands off you who think she should have been kept in that state. I was no more personal or volatile than you were.

5. He refuses to answer my outrage.

Where did you get that lie? I said I would prefer to shut this listing down and start another so her name could come down off the board out of respect for her. I thought we could discuss the points of this issue under another topic. You care so much that you decided it she should stay up and then lie about whether I would answer you.

6. I keep forgetting how many insensitive people there are in the world. Be proud! You’re the majority! I hope you feel real good about it.

I guess it’s a tough world perspective you live in. I do know there are a lot of sensitive, or should I say thin skinned, people out there who can’t handle what they dish out first.


You were right about one thing. You are not going to change my opinion. I’ve always believed that this was a private issue that our government had no business getting involved in.
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Postby topographic_drama1980 » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:56 pm

I'm glad I stayed out of this thread. I'm just glad she's in a more peaceful place, like she wanted to be.
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Postby Roan's Lady » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:13 pm

I'm glad for that, as well, Josh.
Keric, Yesman has stated that he's taking a break from here, so I don't know that he will be reading/responding to your post.

I'm going to close the thread - I think its purpose has been served.

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