The ongoing YES Marketing Disaster



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Postby yeskat » Thu Sep 06, 2001 12:59 pm

WOW! I leave for a few days and come back to ... what? ~ I don't know! All very interesting, indeed!

Anyhow, I HAVE A DREAM... and that is gman's prediction! I dream of Yes making it "bigtime" once more. And in order to do it, they must appeal to a wide variety of an audience. There must be some pop (high-quality pop, mind you!) for the younger fans, and there must be some of their classic style for the old-timers. That's what was attempted on The Ladder, and I believe on this new one. Of course they want to ride the waves of huge success again, they have a lot to offer this world! They will not be able to please everyone all the time. But these guys are busting their butts to please as many as possible, and doing 2.5 to 3 hour concerts, they DESERVE some appreciation and recognition for it! IMO, if it has to be done commercially, then so be it! I pray they find the magical management to do it, whoever that might be! <img src=pix/icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>forever!
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Postby johnruuu » Thu Sep 06, 2001 1:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>YesGrrl wrote:</b>
YesWorld is owned and maintained by a fan. It's not going anywhere if Yes' management should change. What does one have to do with the other? Nothing. And you know what -- why should anyone care? We shouldn't. It's a free country!

Johnruuu -- to you especially -- as I said before, get a grip! Not you, nor I, nor anyone else on this message board, are the band's management company, marketing rep, record company, booking agent or anything else. We're just fans. Let's keep that in perspective.

Thanks again, all, for a most enjoyable read!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

YESGRRL:

It has been a pleasure. Was that gripping or griping...I will learn to make these sound much less defensive in the future.

My point should be made simple enough about the 'official' website. When a new management contract (OR AGREEMENT) goes forward with a different company or consortium, the current official site (with Mike, Jeff, etc.. irrespective of how well they know the band )should/will either be bought out or become another unofficial site. That is it. I happen to think that it 'matters' allot in an overall business marketing and strategic scheme.

You mentioned at some point that your a lawyer. That is more interesting to me than all of the other hub bub we have been passing back and forth. What is your practice? I have a brother that is a managing partner with Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher in Los Angeles. Perhaps you have heard of them. The new Solicitor General of the US (Ted O.) is the guy who argued the Bush presidential case in the US Supreme Court. He is also from GDC. Anyway, I usually get along with lawyers just fine.

Oh, BTW, I am retired at age 39 from the IT industry. Maybe I am just looking for another hobby to keep my interest.

Either way, thanks for the rush!


Peace.
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Postby Altair » Thu Sep 06, 2001 1:48 pm

When I spoke to Jon in Reno, he told me, "Get the album. It has a little something for everybody."

Ed, I agree with you. These intense debates are most lively and enjoyable. Ok, so a few pies are thrown every now and zen. However, with the right attitude, it's about as comical as watching the 3 stooges. We just need to remember to take it lightly.

yeskat, about your dream...shhhhhh, keep it down. We don't want Yes to make it bigtime. This great band is our little secret. If word gets out, and they go mainstream, it'll go to their heads and they'll start putting out "pop" music. Yikes!
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Postby yeskat » Thu Sep 06, 2001 1:56 pm

Altair ~~ Not JUST pop! GOOD, high-quality pop! I'm sure they wouldn't forget us old folks... <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby Altair » Thu Sep 06, 2001 2:24 pm

<img src=pix/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Interesting point, yeskat. I guess if they do make it big (which I agree would be nice) their music would have to be considered popular in the sense that so many people would like it. Wow, can you imagine Yes putting out a tune as successful as Santana's "Smooth?" And, to raise the bar of pop music would surely be a welcomed relief especially if new talent like Creed and Vertical Horizon followed suit!
"High-quality pop"...it almost has a nice ring to it.
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Postby nightliner » Thu Sep 06, 2001 2:50 pm

Don't be fooled by Don't Go. Havng heard the whole cd, that song does not fit with the rest of the cd. While it may not be the weakest song on the disc (there are two 2 minute throwaway songs), there are 7 songs better than that. Most of them sound like classic Yes, or even better, ABWH. nd yes Cris does do vocals on one track. It is a song that originally was written in the days of XYZ. Chris is also very prominent in background vocals.
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Postby Altair » Thu Sep 06, 2001 9:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>nightliner wrote:</b>
Don't be fooled by Don't Go. Havng heard the whole cd, that song does not fit with the rest of the cd. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Nightliner, so, uhm, you've heard the whole CD? Really?
Why don't you meet me over in the album forum and fill me in?<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby Chris2210 » Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:31 pm

Time for Chris' NBHB (New Big Hare-Brained) theory: or why Yes stand little chance of scoring that monster hit again.

I think we are unfortunately at a new nadir in popular music history. Rock was young and revolutionary in the 50s; got its adolescent spots and eager first fumblings at more mature activities in the 60's and arguably reached confident adulthood by the early seventies. By the late 70s/early 80s it hit a mid life crisis and started a desperate and pathetic attempt to get 'yoofull' and 'hanging wiv ver kids', damning all the things it did as a young adult.

Now I've tortured the life out of that analogy, I'll try and get to the point: Music in the 80s was in a generally fairly dire state, with all the big name survivors of the 60s and 70s pitching at an increasingly mainstream audience. Just about everyone I can think of did this: Yes, Genesis (especially), the Rolling Stones (probably from the early 70s), Bowie (with the execrable 'Let's Dance') and a host of others. The big 'bankable' stars have been pure 'pop' for quite some time - the likes of Elton John, George Michael and dear old Madge, always so.

Bringing us to the present and my NBHB theory. Those torchbearers of musical excellence and artistic freedom, the big record companies, have come to the astonishing conclusion that anyone can write that sort of shite. They can be pretty, they can be young, they can be easily manipulated and paid a much smaller cut than established performers. They can then be thrown away like all the other fast disposable consumer items our undemanding and undiscerning society pigs down and shits out ready for the next forgettable bite. The blander and more superficial this stuff is the better it is from a marketing point of view - the average record buyer might replace their entire collection every five years!

Bleak and cheerless a prospect as it is, I can only see music of any depth occupying niche markets in the present climate. This would not be such a bad thing of itself - perhaps it's a realistic demographic after all. The problem is that currently that niche seems to be starved of the oxygen of publicity and airplay and facing a consequence of diminishing returns. Yes could chart again and I'll give you the formula: guest Britney Spears, Wyclef Jean, Puff Daddy, Eminem or anyone else the record companies are interested in or the media will consider newsworthy. Yes could release the catchiest 'can't get the fucker outta my head' piece of fluff ever written and it won't make them chart without some form of extreme gimmick or near inconceivable lucky chance.

If this all makes me sound like some sort of conspiracy nutter, I have to say I don't think the present management are being deliberately inept. I think they're just desperate - they're in a situation of trying to swim a raging torrent smartly equipped with a fur coat and oversize wellies (galoushes in American, I think). In that context, the DVD-A tie-in sounds a reasonably sensible, if somewhat desperate measure. Why would any management company deliberately try to minimise the impact of one of their clients?

End of hairbrained theory bollox transmission.
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Postby YesGrrl » Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:41 pm

Lotus, thanks for the kind welcome. I'm really enjoying the boards and the great conversations.

Johnruuu, I'm glad we've come to a "meeting of the minds." It feels like I've met a kindred spirit who enjoys a good joust now and then.

Now, about that marketing plan...<img src=pix/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby nightliner » Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:47 pm

The dvd audio might be the best thing they could do to help bring attention to the cd, although it won't help with cd sales. With the growing dvd market and the excellant sound quality of the cd, the dvd could sell very well. I can imagine it will sound very nice in 5.1 surround sound. I know I will be buying it the day it comes out.

Dave
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Postby yesfan37 » Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:12 am

Well, that just about wraps it up for now. Please do not waste any more of my time unless you have something to actually contribute to the thread.
<font color=green></font id=green>
[/quote]
Whoa lighten up "dude"

Just a few thoughts from another YESfan:

well I've been saying for years YES managment leaves ALOT to be desired. YES is much better than alot of older bands that do seem to draw more attention than YES does.

YES merchandise has never flooded the market, that is for sure.
YES has done hats and mugs/glasses before, but no bumper stickers.

as for the new CD I am looking forward to it with Open arms! I will not pre judge it! I will not compare it to Close to the Edge or Going for the One!
I loved the new songs they did on this tour!

I Loved The Ladder, I thought YESfans were Way too hard on it!

As the years roll by I Thank God we still have YES around when soo many other greats have left the rock & roll stage or even worse died from excess!
Is YES different now than they were in the 70's ? well yes of course they are ! are you the same person you where at 15 compared to 25 or 35 or 50? I don't think so.

Why are YESfans so picky when we still have the Greatest band in the World still making music and touring? No they are not perfect But who is ? you?
Maybe YESfans are so touchy because YES music touches people on such a personal/spiritual level ?

No I am not happy about having to wait till December for the new CD BUT at least there is a new CD !

Peace YESfans :)
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Postby yeskat » Fri Sep 07, 2001 2:15 am

Chris,
Yes doesn't HAVE to be crappy pop OR classic rock; one or the other! I pray to God they never add Britney or whoever else to their repertiore! Anyway, I don't think we ever have to worry about THAT! I think they have tried to please both crowds by adding a little of both (however, not "crappy" pop). I think they may always do their epic long pieces, because that's pretty much one of the things that made them famous to begin with, so many of us love and appreciate it, and besides, it's part of the SOUL of YES!

Yesfan,
I agree with you completely -- well said! <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> At the same time, though, I am not one who blindly accepts and agrees with everything the group does, either! Besides, they can't please all the people all the time. So I'm sure you understand that it's okay to voice your dislikes -- one of the reasons we have this forum, of course...

nightliner,
How the heck did you get to hear the whole album??? Tell me, on a 1-10 scale (10 the highest score) what would YOU rate this new one? Just curious...! Welcome to Yestalk! <img src=pix/icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby nightliner » Fri Sep 07, 2001 2:25 am

Yeskat, I'd give an 8.
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Postby qman » Fri Sep 07, 2001 4:02 am

<font color=red>Chris,
WOW, bravo, you hit the nail on the head about what's going on in the recording industry. You perfectly spelled out the very sad truth of an industry that is working a business/marketing formula to the hilt.
I do believe that somewhere along the line the brainless masses that buy all this disposable Back Street Boys, etc.... CRAP grow tired of it, and with that record companies will have to promote some new artists that actually have talent and vision.

Yeskat,
Despite the amazing long shot, I do wish for YES to experience a PF Wall type of hysteria. The Wall release is actually the perfect example, it had radio friendly tunes that turned the high-school age masses on, but at the same time remained every bit the PF we all know. The material was there, but it was their marketers pressing the right buttons to make it fly like it did. Anything is possible, dream the dream!</font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby Chris2210 » Fri Sep 07, 2001 5:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>yeskat wrote:</b>
Chris,
Yes doesn't HAVE to be crappy pop OR classic rock; one or the other! I pray to God they never add Britney or whoever else to their repertiore! Anyway, I don't think we ever have to worry about THAT!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I wasn't suggesting they should take those routes, YK! Quite the opposite - they are at their best (as anyone with any vision is), when they follow their own path.

Apologies to any fans of recent Santana, but I didn't like 'Smooth' and absolutely hated 'Maria'. I'd sooner see Yes retire than descend to those sort of levels. My point was that they should realise that any attempt to write pop hits are futile because today's commercial climate is not the same as the eighties when many serious groups made the (commercially) successful crossover into pop territory. Carlos' huge success with 'Supernatural' was a product of the new vogue for latin music in pop together with the current popularity of his bedfellows. Now of course if Prog ever comes into fashion... Well, there's got to be a <b>first</b> time for everything<img src=pix/icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby johnruuu » Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>YesGrrl wrote:</b>
Johnruuu, I'm glad we've come to a "meeting of the minds." It feels like I've met a kindred spirit who enjoys a good joust now and then.

Now, about that marketing plan...<img src=pix/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

And...the corresponding strategic business plan...<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby yeskat » Sat Sep 08, 2001 3:27 am

It appears to me that Rock (or even Prog rock) just might be making a slight comeback. The new movie "Rockstar" (anyone seen it?) just might stir up some interest. Also, so many old Rock groups are out there touring once again. Tool has done well in the charts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
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Postby YesGrrl » Sat Sep 08, 2001 7:11 am

Saw a preview of "Rock Star" here in LA. Unfortunately, it's about a heavy-metal band, not a prog-rock band. More unforunately, it's not very good (although you have to give Mark Wahlberg credit -- he's about the best thing in it --which isn't saying a whole lot).
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Postby N2yes » Sat Sep 08, 2001 7:21 am

<font color=red>If you're speaking about "Marky Mark" Wahlberg, no, I don't have to give him credit and I won't even entertain the notion! Barf city!! C'mon your bannistership, surely you know this guy is a pitiful actor, manufactured from the DEPTHS of Hollyweed!</font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Without Hope You Cannot Start The Day
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Postby gatesofdeliriumcrasher » Sat Sep 08, 2001 12:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>YesGrrl wrote:</b>
Saw a preview of "Rock Star" here in LA. Unfortunately, it's about a heavy-metal band, not a prog-rock band. More unforunately, it's not very good (although you have to give Mark Wahlberg credit -- he's about the best thing in it --which isn't saying a whole lot).
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I haven't seen it yet, but I would venture to guess the best thing in it is the score by Trevor Rabin.

<hr>"...we are merely players, performers and portayers. Each another's audience outside the gilded cage." Rush
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Postby Altair » Sat Sep 08, 2001 12:29 pm

Chris, sorry to hear you didn't like Supernatural! Great album I thought. Maybe only 2 or 3 tunes on their that didn't really groove for me. Wow! have you given the rest of the album a try? The second half of that album is really good, at least I thought. Nothing personal, but I find it weird how people can "hate" some music that really isn't that bad. Maria Maria has some nice, soulful vocals, and some good guitar rifs. Also, while Santana did capitalize on good fortune with latin music, Smooth was not latin based.
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Postby yeskat » Sat Sep 08, 2001 1:02 pm

Marky Mark? Bleah! <img src=pix/icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oh well, so much for the movie...
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Postby Chris2210 » Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Altair wrote:</b>
Chris, sorry to hear you didn't like Supernatural! Great album I thought. Maybe only 2 or 3 tunes on their that didn't really groove for me. Wow! have you given the rest of the album a try? The second half of that album is really good, at least I thought. Nothing personal, but I find it weird how people can "hate" some music that really isn't that bad. Maria Maria has some nice, soulful vocals, and some good guitar rifs. Also, while Santana did capitalize on good fortune with latin music, Smooth was not latin based.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, I confess I haven't heard the whole album. I was tempted to give it a go after hearing 'Smooth', in the hope that there was better stuff on there, but was put off laying out the cash after the release of 'Maria Maria'. I find the lyrics sphincter-contracting, (but hey, maybe that's just my problem), and I can't get beyond that 'R&B' stylee, (not what this old fogey regards as rhythm & blues), vocalising that puts 37 syllables in the word 'lurv'.

You seem like an intelligent and discerning sort of bloke though, so maybe I should try and hear the other tracks. If I were to purchase a copy though, I'd have to burn an edited version without Maria!
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Postby N2yes » Sun Sep 09, 2001 6:33 am

<font color=red><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Oh, BTW, I am retired at age 39 from the IT industry.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=red>

<font color=red>Johnruuu, your point is? Why do I get the impression the hallways of your house are lined with pictures of yourself?</font id=red> <img src=pix/icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

<font color=red>As for myself, I retired from egocentricity prior to my 11th birthday.</font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Without Hope You Cannot Start The Day
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Postby Altair » Sun Sep 09, 2001 9:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Chris2210 wrote:</b>
You seem like an intelligent and discerning sort of bloke though, so maybe I should try and hear the other tracks. If I were to purchase a copy though, I'd have to burn an edited version without Maria!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'd hate to see you waste your money on something you'd potentially not like on my account. I'm easy to please when it comes to music. I almost find it embarrassing to say in this forum, but I like just about any kind of music, from simple bubblegum pop to the most complex music you can find, from Mozart to Metallica as I usually like to say. Personally, I love Santana. I grew up around much older brothers who played all kinds of classic rock. I was playing air guitar to Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, and Santana when I was 4.

So, I'd be more than willing to burn a copy for you. I'd even throw on some of Santana's instrumental CD, "Brothers" which I find very listenable.
There is another tune, very rappish, on Supernatural that I don't care for at all which means you probably wouldn't either. Anyways, email me if you're interested. Yesunion@aol.com
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Postby johnruuu » Sun Sep 09, 2001 9:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>N2yes wrote:</b>
<font color=red><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Oh, BTW, I am retired at age 39 from the IT industry.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=red>

<font color=red>Johnruuu, your point is? Why do I get the impression the hallways of your house are lined with pictures of yourself?</font id=red> <img src=pix/icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

N2Y, No, just pictures of Family, Friends and my favorite Musicians!
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Postby Tomfoolery » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Altair wrote:</b>
I'd even throw on some of Santana's instrumental CD, "Brothers" which I find very listenable.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Have you ever listened to Santana's "Welcome"? Absolutely FANTASTIC. One of my all time favorite Santana albums.. especially "Mother Africa" and "Love Devotion and Surrender". An AMAZING piece of work!
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Postby Khatru » Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:22 pm

Now, I'm not the least bit hip to the inner workings of the music industry and all of its' politics and legal shmoots. One thing I am acutely aware of though is the density of mass consciousness and the relentless effort of the music industry to coninue to promote this. YES, their music, message, energy, the whole package is far too evolved for the masses to want to buy AT THIS POINT. What YES have been doing since the beginning is creating a "product" that can awaken the spirit of the listener, empower the listener, raise levels of consciousness, ultimately be a healing force far beyond the lowest common denominator that Joe Slick is trying to sell you. Any mainstream industry, be it music, healthcare, education, etc.,is run by an establishment that ultimately wants to keep us disempowered, dense, ill, and feeling a strong and continued fear based consumer need for their lame products and services. Why then would such an entity promote YES? Of course there are going to be high minded individuals within who make strides to do so, and those few consumers who tend to vibrate quickly enough to understand on any level what YES has to offer. That's how YES continues to exist. Based on the spiritual evolution of the masses AT THIS POINT, if Progressive Rock became big again, the heavy, dense, dark bands would sell and YES with their major keys, heavenly textures and - Master of images...Songs cast a light on you - brilliance, would be soaring above it all, getting the same old shaft from all the same old clowns who get annoyed by Jons' voice. "Too pure for ya? that's fine, Check it out Duuuude...I hear the Stones are touring again" - Whatever.
So sure, I am totally bummed about having to wait til December for Magnification. I am however very pleased to have been turned onto YES way back when, to have YES as a driving force behind my spiritual evolution, to have had the honor of turning on so many now very dear friends to the greatest band that I know of, with more musical integrity than the whole rest of the industry - thank you very much, to be included in the elite few who get it, to trust that SOMEDAY the masses also will, and to hold the intention of doing life as powerfully as they collectively do. Peace
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Postby massos » Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:31 pm

Heh...its straight into amazon.co.uk's top selling chart at number 5. Must be due to all you yes nuts across the pond ordering a UK copy :-)
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Postby Dr_Yes » Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:43 pm

And who'd have thought it . . . . . a decent review from the normally cynical British music press - read on:

Amazon.co.uk Review

Who'd have thought it? Magnification is the strongest, freshest set of new Yes material in living memory and fundamentally different to anything the veteran prog-rock unit has ever recorded before. Having thoroughly exhausted the world's supply of classically inclined rock keyboard players (Tony Kaye, Rick Wakeman, Patrick Moraz, Geoff Downes and Igor Khorosev) the four remaining--and possibly exasperated--members of Yes have taken the fantastically brave decision to dispense with that perennially bothersome ivory-tickling slot altogether. And so Messrs Anderson, White, Squire and Howe have enlisted the temporary services of Emmy-award-winning television and movie score composer Larry Groupe, whose cinematic orchestrations--dancing flutes, Bond theme brass, tsunami-like strings--lend a whole new and thoroughly modern aura to the band's sonic palette. Anyone expecting smugly complacent, stagnant, stuck-in-the-1970s prog-rock (and the keyboards were always the giveaway) will be thoroughly disappointed by the emotionally engaging ambition, revised logic and sensibly-channelled instrumental prowess of the material on offer. "We Agree", Dreamtime" and--particularly--the impressively widescreen and superbly melodicised "Give Love Each Day" are all stand-out tracks on an album which--as the title suggests--really does hold up well to close scrutiny. --Kevin Maidment
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