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YEStalk Discussion Forums • View topic - YesBruford, YesWhite, YesMoraz, YesWakeman, YesRabin,YesKorashev, etc etc (long)

YesBruford, YesWhite, YesMoraz, YesWakeman, YesRabin,YesKorashev, etc etc (long)



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YesBruford, YesWhite, YesMoraz, YesWakeman, YesRabin,YesKorashev, etc etc (long)

Postby Tomfoolery » Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:52 pm

I've been a long time reader of this forum, since before the "yestalk.org" days when it was still part of AfterHours, and there is one argument that I've stayed out of in all that time. As a matter of fact, I don't post often at ALL, but occasionally I feel like I should respond OR need to respond to several of the topics. Now, for some reason, the comment made in N2's topic "Return of Wakeman: Lawyers, Nuns and Money" by Astral Traveller (to wit: "If Trevor Rabin was still in the band, Rick wouldn't return, I guess.")
(and this is NOT a slam on you, Astral Traveller, that statement was just a catalyst, I guess) I feel like it's time to air my viewpoint, and this is a viewpoint that comes from a 30 year fan of Yes, through all different lineups, through all different styles, and through many different mindsets and musical "phases".

Yanno, I personally did NOT appreciate YesWest some 20 years ago when they were "all the rage". However, over the past 10 years or so I've listened to it quite extensively, and while I'll agree that the Jon, Steve, Chris, Alan, Keyboardist lineup is my FIRST Yes love, the YesWest years have a LOT of merit. And, although his style is DEFINITELY different than Steve's, Trevor is an extremely talented guitarist/vocalist/songwriter.. not to mention a team player. Personally, I feel I was EXTREMELY unfair when I discounted the YesWest musical merit based on the loss of Steve Howe, and EXTREMELY narrow-minded to be of the opinion that YesWest was devoid of talent and substance. I've grown / matured since then, and yanno, the YesWest years actually have a LOT to offer, and I'll listen to, love and be inspired by ANY of the Yes Music. Some compositions are more my flavor than others, but it's ALL reflective of the collective YES mind at the time of the composition and the performance, even in the studio (the collective YesMind being Steve, Jon, Alan, Chris, Trevor, Trevor Horne, Billy Sherwood, Igor, Patrick, Eddie Offord, WHOEVER was involved in the making of the particular recording that we're enjoying, no matter WHAT the recording), and it's interesting, gratifying and honestly enjoyable to be allowed to experience the intimate emotions of the members of the band at all of the various stages of their lives. After all, what is music but the collective aural interpretation of the emotions and mindsets of the composer(s) at the time of the writing, the performers at the time of the performance, and the listeners at the time of the listening? Tastes change, things that were unclear or missed at one point are picked up at a later time (when your spirit/emotions/mindset are at a point to hear them), and something that maybe didn't "tweak your trigger" at one time could strike you MUCH differently at another. Case in point.. Relayer. When I first bought it, I didn't like it and put it aside for possibly 10 years. "No way this Patrick Moraz dude can replace Rick. How can they even IMAGINE such a thing?". Now it's my all time favorite Yes album.

Alan White - my thoughts when he took over during the YESSONGS tours - "Yanno, this guy's good.. and talented.. but listen to his solos.. there are more rim shots and mistakes there than there are on the tracks that Bruford performed on! Bruford's better....." Now, Alan White is the drummer of choice for me (not to discount Bill Bruford's talent nor contribution to the band at ALL).

Patrick Moraz.. see above.

Tony - Who? (although I've always enjoyed Time and a Word)

Peter Banks - see Tony

Rick comes back .. YES!!! Huh? Tormato?

Geoff Downes? Trevor Horne? Where's Jon? Rick?

Who's Trevor Rabin? Owner? Commercial claptrap.. oh no, they sold out...

"Hey, Honey! Look what I found in the Discount Bin.. it's a YES album called Talk! I've never even heard of it! But hey, for 2 bucks, it's worth it to take the chance!" (actually happened.. what a blessing to find that absolutely brilliant example of Trevor's talents and abilities for such a bargain price).

STEVE'S BACK, as is RICK! Yahoo!! Keys? Hmm.. ah well. Good albums, anyway.

Huh? Billy Sherwood? Where does HE fit in?

Igor Khoreshev? Hmm.. not sure what to make of this guy.. WAIT.. he's BRILLIANT, but Billy Sherwood? Isn't he that guy over there that doesn't fit in on stage?

Hey, Billy really added a lot to the Ladder tour.. huh? He's gone now?

Tom Brislin? Who?

Rick's Back.. YAHOO....

Now, there's a lot of sarcasm in the above post, but those are VERY briefly and basically my reaction to the various changes in the
lineup. But I've matured, and every stage and every aspect of the band in the past 30 plus years has had artistic, emotional and literary merit of one sort or another, and although I do have my favorite cuts / compositions by the band, I also enjoy ALL of their efforts, and I appreciate every one of the members past present AND future (whatever THAT may hold) for giving all that they could to enhance the magic that we call YesMusic.

Thanks to the YesMind, the YesHeart and the YesMachine for producing the YesMusic I've been enjoying and been inspired by for the past 30 years.
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Postby TenVoices » Wed May 01, 2002 1:40 am

Well written. I share a similar view about the YesWest line-up, but being a Yes fan for only about 15 years it was THE Yes I started with. I may be in the minority of Yes fans who started with the commercial sound and gained an appreciation for the non-Rabin material, but I would never discount Rabin's contribution to my introduction to the band.

Glad you found Talk in the discount bin. It is a spectacular piece of work.
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Postby qman » Thu May 02, 2002 3:44 am

<font color=purple>Any real YES fanatic should enjoy the YES West material. Rabin not only helped keep YES going he help add a ton of new YES fans. I started in 73 and saw them the 1st time in 75 and I always enjoyed 90125, BG, and Talk, and to tell the truth I wish ABWH 2 would have been released without the mixing of the bands and creating UNION. Then the YES West material that ended up on UNION could have been the follow-up to BG with Anderson, oh well. I think those two CD's would have been much better than UNION was, however there are some beautiful tracks on UNION but I think they would have surfaced on the two separate CD's. Just a thought.
Old Yes fans that dislike Rabin are missing out on some great YES material.</font id=purple>
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Postby YesJo » Thu May 02, 2002 4:09 am

Not really qman, I give a listen to the BG and 90215 and Union sometimes, some of it I like, some I just don't, but I'm not missing anything. I just enjoy the other stuff better. I too found Talk in the discount bin on tape, and I do enjoy it, better than the rest of the YesWest contributions. I respect the people that came to know Yes in the 80's and I understand why they feel they way they do about liking Trevor Rabin. To me is a guy who has had his time in Yes, I personally just don't want to see his return. I prefer the old and the new better than the middle, but I think it's great that so many people see it in so many different ways. It's all good when you get right down to it, I would buy anything they put out, always have, always will, and I will always go see them.<img src=pix/icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby sound_chaser » Thu May 02, 2002 6:04 am

I’ve been listening to 90125 recently since I got my new turntable. I really want to get into it again, but I just can’t. The songs are generally okay, but they have no substance to them. It just sounds like A.O.R to me. I try not to blame Rabin, because calling this band Yes wasn’t his idea. But seeing as it was Yes, and that’s my passion, here’s what I dislike about Trevor Rabin being in Yes. He has no more than an average singing voice and yet he’s in there mixing it with Jon Anderson for Christ’s sake! As a guitarist, he’s undoubtedly talented, but that talent is derived from someone else. And that someone…is Jeff Beck. Rabin, has a lot of what made Jeff Beck famous i.e. FLASH! But Rabin has none of Beck’s style and class. Listen to Beck’s Blow By Blow, or Wired albums and you will hear the similarity in style, but also the difference. I think Trevor Rabin is a Jeff Beck copyist and he comes off a very poor second best. That’s why I can’t even imagine how anyone can compare Rabin to Steve Howe. Jeff Beck and Steve Howe, share a common bond of excellence and originality. They each created a unique, instantly identifiable sound. With regards to songwriting, Trevor Rabin, I feel, has gone down the road of trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. That last sentence is more or less YesWest in a nutshell.

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Postby guilddigger » Thu May 02, 2002 6:46 am

<font face='Comic Sans MS'>the only yeswest album i don´t like is bg. can´t say much about union ´cause it´s the only yes album i don´t have. i like a lot of stuff on 90125 and talk i think is very good. trevor is a very good guitarist but i think he relies too much on distortion and feedback. jeff beck influences? yeah why not, but in his acoustic soloing i hear even more of mr mahavishnu, john mclaughlin.
like rick wakeman said, yes has never had weak musicians. i agree, everyone who has been in yes has high musical qualities. that´s what made yes so good. so even as a trooper, i think rabin deserves acknowledgement for his work in yes. (he is no howe though <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)


</font id='Comic Sans MS'>

<hr>stay awaken
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Postby thesage » Thu May 02, 2002 12:05 pm

I find the whole yes-west debate rather dull as with the Trevor Rabin bashing. He was the catalyst that kept YES alive in the 1980s- He is not Steve Howe, I prefer Howe for many reasons, but Trevor is a far cleaner and precise guitarist than Steve is.

Do I like all of Yes's 1980s releases- No, Were the ablums really progressive? Not like Relayer or even Drama, but they always contained some fine tracks were interesting.

Actually I also find people's reation to Big Generator quite intriguing. I think its the most interesting ofthe 3 albums which Trevor worked on and in many was the most yesish.

I think that there is far more AOR on 90125 and Talk than there is on Big Generator-
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Postby psychopomp95 » Thu May 02, 2002 12:45 pm

Speaking from a standpoint of pure emotional impact, Trevor Rabin's playing moves me more than Steve Howe's does. The YesWest songs themselves, meanwhile, I agree don't quite have THAT impact, but it says a lot that Rabin can play something in those songs that GENUINELY excites me, whereas with some of the 'Classic Yes' poppier songs, I just think they range from pleasant to rather bland; even as talented as Steve Howe is, he can't do stuff within those songs that really catches me off guard. But when Rabin puts his style on epic material, be it Classic Yes stuff or some of the songs on Talk, the result is just astounding!
As far as his singing voice being 'average'... I'd LOVE to have an 'average' voice like his! <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> From a pure standpoint of range, he would stand up VERY well against a lot of other rock singers, not counting the 'banshee metal' voiced guys like James LaBrie, Geddy Lee or Rob Halford anyway! And from a purely technical standpoint, Rabin holds his notes better than Anderson AND hits them more accurately, more often. That said, his singing alone isn't his strength, and for me Jon Anderson DEFINITELY has a more emotional voice! But that's due in part to the 'imperfections' when he uses it! Likewise Steve Howe, I guess; for most people part of the reason they like him is because he isn't always perfectly smooth or polished!
And yeah, very good point about BG; in many ways it WAS the most experimental YesWest album! Even the 'Owner' ripoff title track has some very neat stuff, production-wise! And I guess there is another big thing... YesWest's uniqueness largely stems from the production tricks that Rabin and Horn employed, whereas with Classic Yes it came more directly from the songs themselves! So it's a case of creating a 'similar' effect (uniqueness) using a different method!
And maybe Rabin isn't as original as Howe, but speaking even as a musician, originality is NOT the absolute #1 priority with music (at least I don't think it should be), as much as emotion.... which of course is all subjective anyways, so there's not really any way to debate this kind of thing! <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> But it's fun anyway!
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Postby yeskat » Thu May 02, 2002 1:08 pm

Tom,
You experiences and feelings about YES are very much like mine. I appreciate every phase of YES, and all those who have come and gone and come back again in the band. Very well said; couldn't have said it better!
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Postby YesJo » Fri May 03, 2002 9:52 am

Sound Chaser, you hit the nail right on the head when you said that Rabin is such an average singer and was actually singing WITH Jon Anderson for god sakes!! I think that was my biggest problem with him, it seemed like he was always trying to sing over Jon, uughh, it was horrible, Jon is such a classic, noone can compare, leave the singing to him.

I am so tired of this Rabin debate, he is gone, thank god, for whatever he was worth, whatever the band was then, it is over, it wasn't all his fault, but can we ever get on with life without debating his input to Yes?

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Postby N2yes » Fri May 03, 2002 10:05 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Welcome to YEStalk, thesage! I know you guys desperately yearn for a YES show down there and understandably so. As things fall in place here regarding the upcoming tour, keep your fingers crossed...it could happen. Again, we welcome you to YEStalk and if you should require any assistance navigating this site, don't hesitate to ask!</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>"Spirit of emotion dancing through the wind"
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Postby jmcinerney327 » Fri May 03, 2002 9:18 pm

N2yes.......haven't posted for a while on this site but please to see your still supporting a tour of Oz.

as for this topic. IMHO I believe that with any Yes album you can always find something great, something OK and, something "that can be left alone". it is my experinece that the first two categories outweigh the last one by quiet a margin.

It is just "opinion" that says whether one line up is better than others but you cant disagree that ALL line ups have something to offer the Yes story. I have stated so often that if it wasn't for Trevor then Yes may not be alive today. If Jon didn't come back for 90125 would Yes still be alive. if Mag wasn't such a "different" album would they still be together. And now the next question is Rick rejoining. Will this produce another "rebirth".

For what its worth my opinion is that Yes could not continue to tour, record etc with an orchestra. history shows that groups will "indulge" in this sort of thing once in a while but it is not a long standing sustaining situation. Rick rejoining IMO sloves that problem. the next step for me is an album with Rick (and of course a tour of Oz). For me this is the "classic" Yes lineup and with the ideas I imagine Rick bringing to the group I am more than excited by the prospects of the next Yes album (provided Rick stays that long!!!!).

I hope you guys in the US enjoy the forthcoming tour. But don't forget your "brothers and sisters" in this part of the world and don't miss an opportunity to push our cause.

Good to be back.
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Postby yesman90125 » Sat May 04, 2002 11:40 pm

my opinion is this
Yes ,regardless of the line up-is all light
just different types of light
and different approaches to the same central themes
sometimes it works better than others
but it is all Good stuff on some level
and the variety in the songs and styles as well as the various musicians
it what keeps the music alive and fresh
you can say this for the band as a collective
they aren't afraid to try new things
and they aren't afraid to flop- or to alienate the core fans in doing it.
so
this courage to me
is a big thing
to be aplauded
now you can pick on this song or that for being
too commercial or too experimental-or too electronic- or too "world music"
or too symphonic or too simplistic.
but it seems to me that thats the point.
an experiment in that particular direction .
you can be sure of one thing the next incarnation will be different.
variety, the spice of life!
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Postby N2yes » Sat May 04, 2002 11:51 pm

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Damn well said, Yesman!!!</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red> <img src=pix/icon_yes_yes2.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>"Spirit of emotion dancing through the wind"
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Postby N2yes » Sun May 05, 2002 12:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>jmcinerney327 wrote:</b>
N2yes.......haven't posted for a while on this site but please to see your still supporting a tour of Oz.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Always will, JM. We here in the states will always have a special affinity for anything Australian. Therefore, there is an overriding sense of fraternity and to that end, we need to share. Now, convincing the powers that be this is a priority is apparently not so easy. However, I remain convinced they have their feelers out! Good luck to all YES fans in OZ!</font id=red></font id='Papyrus'>

<b>jmcinerney327 wrote:</b>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Good to be back.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>It's damn good to have you back, JM!</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red> <img src=pix/icon_yes_yes2.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>"Spirit of emotion dancing through the wind"
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Postby jackalz » Sun May 05, 2002 10:35 am

yesman,

I of course agree with you, that all incarnations of Yes are light. I would even go farther to say that all incarnations of everything is light.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> just different types of light
and different approaches to the same central themes
sometimes it works better than others
but it is all Good stuff on some level
and the variety in the songs and styles as well as the various musicians<font color=orange> (all people) </font id=orange>
is what keeps the music <font color=orange>(the world) </font id=orange>alive and fresh
you can say this for the band as a collective
they aren't afraid to try new things
and they aren't afraid to flop- or to alienate the core fans in doing it.
so
this courage to me
is a big thing
to be aplauded
now you can pick on this song<font color=orange> (or whatever) </font id=orange> or that for being
too commercial or too experimental-or too electronic- or too "world music"
or too symphonic or too simplistic.
but it seems to me that thats the point.
an experiment in that particular direction .
you can be sure of one thing the next incarnation will be different.
variety, the spice of life!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<hr>Dawn of our power...as only to teach love as to reveal passion chasing late into corners, and we danced from the ocean.
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Postby yesman90125 » Wed May 08, 2002 12:38 am

[quote]
<b>jackalz wrote:</b>
yesman,

I of course agree with you, that all incarnations of Yes are light. I would even go farther to say that all incarnations of everything is light

your just itching for another theology spillover arn't you?

<hr>"Now I feel your true light
Now I see your pure light
Now I hold this love within my heart

Is come
God of love of light will shine
Is come is come at last"

(J.A.-Toltec)
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Postby Chris2210 » Wed May 08, 2002 1:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
[bJackalz wrote:[/b]

I of course agree with you, that all incarnations of Yes are light. I would even go farther to say that all incarnations of everything is light

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, that's really heavy. Erm, that is...<img src=pix/salook.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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