The Ladder...to love or hate...that is the question.



Postby N2yes » Fri May 11, 2001 8:10 am

Many of us are thankful you weren't in charge of production Fragilesi!<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>"The Ladder" is a masterpiece...all of it! And don't you forget it!!!( he screams due east over the Atlantic in the vain hope Fragilesi can hear him!<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Experience everything as it comes true
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Postby massos » Fri May 11, 2001 4:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Many of us are thankful you weren't in charge of production Fragilesi!<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>"The Ladder" is a masterpiece...all of it! And don't you forget it!!!( he screams due east over the Atlantic in the vain hope Fragilesi can hear him!<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Experience everything as it comes true
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Not like you N2YES to shout rather than articulating :-)

I agree with Fragilesi about vinyl acting as a natural quality control on the material due to its time constraints. However, I'm not sure what I would take out of the Ladder. Maybe.. Ligthning Strikes; but then again my 5 year old daughter loves that track, which makes it a masterpiece in my book.

It's interesting that the vinyl format probably had the reverse effect on Tales from Topographics Oceans. Here they had four sides to fill. So the songs were overlong. IMHO the ideal "paired down" Topographic would have been too long for a single vinyl album but would have fitted nicely on a CD.
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Postby jackalz » Fri May 11, 2001 11:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So the songs were overlong<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font color=purple><font size=4><b> Blasphemy!!!</b></font id=size4></font id=purple>
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Postby Lyth » Sat May 12, 2001 2:32 am

<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

The band themselves have said that there was too much for a single album and not enough for a double.

What I often wonder is how would Fragile have turned out if the band hadn't decided to put the solo pieces on.

Would they have written another long 'masterpiece' to complete the album?
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Postby massos » Sat May 12, 2001 2:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

The band themselves have said that there was too much for a single album and not enough for a double.

What I often wonder is how would Fragile have turned out if the band hadn't decided to put the solo pieces on.

Would they have written another long 'masterpiece' to complete the album?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sorry Lyth, it was your point about the restriction placed by vinyl on the length of an album that I was agreeing with.

In some ways Fragile may have made a better
double album. Room for some more masterpieces
and the solo stuff. Though I have to counter that ELP's Works is a bad example of giving an
entire side to each band member (loved emersons side though)
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Postby Lyth » Sat May 12, 2001 12:43 pm

<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

I was agreeing with you, Massos.

The songs on 'Topographic Oceans' were overlong.
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Postby massos » Sat May 12, 2001 3:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

I was agreeing with you, Massos.

The songs on 'Topographic Oceans' were overlong.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oh dear, this is getting funny. My "sorry Lyth" was an apology to you for the fact that I had credited Fragilesi, rather than you, with the point about vinyl placing a restriction on length. By the time I'd caught up with all the new posts I'd forgotten that you had made the point.

As to the rest we are in agreement.
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Postby fragilesi » Sat May 12, 2001 5:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Many of us are thankful you weren't in charge of production Fragilesi!<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>"The Ladder" is a masterpiece...all of it! And don't you forget it!!!( he screams due east over the Atlantic in the vain hope Fragilesi can hear him!<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Hey I hear you . . .

Actually if I was left in charge of production I'd probably just stand around the studio in total dumbstruck silence agreeing with everything that was said to me. In fact it would probably have ended up twice as long because I wouldn't have been able to bear the thought of losing a single splice of tape <img src=pix/icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

I actually like all of the album but I feel that some songs are amazing while some (judging by Yes standards) are only "good" to me. As for what my running order would be on vinyl I guess Homeworld and New Language would be the absolute definites along with Nine Voices. I'd also include Lightning Strikes but I'd have to think about the rest very carefully because I can't see what I'd really like to leave out.

Possibly controversial but I think that The Messenger would be one of the first to go because by the end of the tour I found it a bit stale live.

Simon.
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Postby theproffet » Sat May 12, 2001 6:03 pm

<font color=red>I can't beleive how long this topic is. Don't mean to pee on someone's parade, but it's not that good. Too much Jon, not nearly enough Chris & Alan. I'm sorry, but I thought the production was overly slick, y major point is that nothing surprised me. No jarring or challenging moments, nothing that made me feel the boys were going forward. Some very pretty songs, but no new ground broken, no boundaries surpassed, no real surprises.

I still buy Yes albums for those jaw dropping moments, when melody gives way to rythm, the bottom drops out, Alan puntuates softly, and Steve comes in with something unique . . .

I'd rather hear Drama actually . . . </font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>"Jon gave the best description of himself to me, better than anyone else could do. He said, "I am the only man who is fighting to save this world while living on another!" -- Rick, '94, Yesstories.
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Postby Lyth » Sat May 12, 2001 7:32 pm

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So would I...
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Postby N2yes » Sat May 12, 2001 10:05 pm

Damn, I hate the smell of urine in the morning!<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Okay you two ( Lyth and Prof ), "Drama" over "The Ladder"? C'mon, and I had such high regard for both of you up to this point! Pretty is in, dynamic is in...what more do we need? Not challenged enough? "Nee I say to you!" You must bring us some shrubbery for your unbridled blasphemy!<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby N2yes » Sat May 12, 2001 10:23 pm

Fragilesi...same here my friend. As a producer, my services would have been quickly dismissed for similar reasons. However, they would probably like to keep me around for inspirational purposes. The reason is simple. Knowing that they have a certain allegiance to their fans, I could be placed in a conspicuous location in the studio with my mouth agape, starry-eyed, immobile and fully mezmerized to stand as a living testament to the effect their music has on their fans. With a little food and frequent visits from my wife and kids, I believe I could live out the rest of my days in such a manner. Well, at least it would be really inspirational for me<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby N2yes » Sat May 12, 2001 10:33 pm

Not like you N2YES to shout rather than articulating :-)

Massos is over 3,000 miles away...I had no choice!<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby N2yes » Sat May 12, 2001 10:37 pm

As you can see, my first feeble attempt at quoting ended in failure...whoa is me. By the way, that's supposed to read he's over 3,000 miles away ( not "his over 3,000" ). I'll be okay...once the medication starts taking effect!<font color=red></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby Lyth » Sun May 13, 2001 4:37 am

<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

Drama over The Ladder?

As a complete package - absolutely.

This is discussed elsewhere on this site and the way I see it (and yes, I know that I'm in the minority here) is that the material on Drama was written in the style of '70-'72 Yes i.e. great arrangements based around songs and very little p***ing about and NO 'fillers'.

I love certain parts of The Ladder but feel that on the other parts they 'lost their way' and produced music that was sub-Yes standard.

But hey, that's just my opinion...
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Postby massos » Sun May 13, 2001 6:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Damn, I hate the smell of urine in the morning!<img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Okay you two ( Lyth and Prof ), "Drama" over "The Ladder"? C'mon, and I had such high regard for both of you up to this point! Pretty is in, dynamic is in...what more do we need? Not challenged enough? "Nee I say to you!" You must bring us some shrubbery for your unbridled blasphemy!<img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>Experience everything as it comes true
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Yep, Prof has been a bit sweeping in his pronouncements ately.

However, Drama is brill. recently got it on CD
and well, it blows Talk and Ladder away.
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Postby every1is1 » Sun May 13, 2001 1:56 pm

Amazing!<img src=pix/silly.gif border=0 align=middle>
Fragelesi, yes, I do need Messenger...you can't cut that one <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Proff, damn, I guess Yes has just gone too soft for you. What's left for ya, Proff?
I guess its all down here for ya now, no more challenges. Oh, how bitter the staleness of it all must be.<img src=pix/icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
Hey, take it from me, give in to your feelings, flow with the music Luke, uh, I mean Proff.
Get rid of the expectations and "help me get me some"<img src=pix/icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby fragilesi » Sun May 13, 2001 8:28 pm

Okay, we'll leave The Messenger in just for you <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

As for Drama, well I'm a big fan of that and wouldn't cut a thing from it but then that was an LP release! I wonder what it or in fact the classic albums would would have been like if they had needed to fill sixty plus minutes of medium . . .

Simon.
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Postby jackalz » Mon May 14, 2001 10:45 pm

Well, I've been playing The Ladder this past weekend. I'm not going to compare it to anything, but the lack of conflict in it does seem to take away an important dynamic that my all-time favorites all have. Still, I'm not bothered by theproffett's peeing, The Ladder is great for what it is. And I think that all the musical genius of Yes albums is there, but it is a little harder to hear behind Jon's very many inspired lyrics. I don't know what got thrown out from the mass of musical ideas, but I know they felt they made the best Yes album they could. I can't complain. I'm waiting for the symphonic album to complain.
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Postby Yes-Loon » Tue May 15, 2001 12:30 am

[quote]
<font color=red> Don't mean to pee on someone's parade, but it's not that good. </font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>


[/quote)

Not the best description of a Yes album I´ve heard, and as for peeing that´s exactly what I did, in my britches when I watched, in awe as the guys paraded The Ladder and Face to face on stage. Let us not be-little The Ladder and please don´t compare it to Drama, another time span another vision . Must have been the time when Jon was "living on another world" eh!!
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Postby N2yes » Tue May 15, 2001 7:25 am

Ete Brute? Massos, you too? The shame, the disappointment...oh, how I languish in my despair...traitorous lot!!!!( just kidding )I'm listening to "The Ladder" right now..."whatcha gonna do when the lightning strikes and hits you?" I really like the line "swimming in this ocean of words on your new cell phone"---a tribute to all the yuppies tied to their communicative umbilical cords! I love it!! What an album!! What a band! "The Ladder"...not enough good can be said about it...period!( well, exclamation point anywho )<font color=blue></font id=blue><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby Lotus » Wed May 30, 2001 1:57 am

...love is the only answer...
...hate is the root of cancer...

But really,even though it's not my all-time fave or anything,I think songs like Homeworld and Face to Face are future classics.I don't love The Messenger but that's about it.

In fact,I was worried about Yes before The Ladder,but seeing the HOB tour put my fears to rest.Those guys have quite a bit of life in them yet,and IMHO The Ladder captures that life and thier spirit better than any of thier offerings since Tormato.
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Postby KEVIN2112 » Thu Jun 07, 2001 12:37 am

The Ladder is a very good cd that I would put on my 2nd tier if favorite Yes albums along with Drama, Going For The One & Big Generator.
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Postby Altair » Wed May 01, 2002 9:04 pm

Yet, another dinosaur awoken.

The Ladder? I remember I loved this album when it came out. Listened to it bigtime for months, then...well, I haven't listened to it from start to finish since.

So, the Ladder, just a fling? A one-album stand? A fleeting memory?
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Postby Yaddict » Wed May 01, 2002 11:08 pm

I can’t wait to hear the unreleased mix of Homeworld on the upcoming DVD-A of Magnification. IMHO Homeworld is the best song they have written since the SLO reunion. Jon’s lyrics were inspired and poetic without falling into clichés. The song is tight and exciting.

The rest of the album had some great ideas but lacks a bit of an edge for my taste.
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Postby TenVoices » Wed May 01, 2002 11:29 pm

Altair, I am still using the Ladder as the album to clean my palate and return to the Yes sound I enjoy. It certainly isn't a fleeting fantasy for me. I still think this is a Top 10 or higher Yes album in every sense.

N2Yes and I might be the biggest fans on this album on the forum, so my view may be enhanced or clouded depending on your view of the album, but it will always be a favorite of mine.
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Postby jackalz » Thu May 02, 2002 1:19 am

Well, I finally took Magnification out of the car CD player, then started recycling my Yes CD's through it, then I started getting tired of changing them and The Ladder has been in for about two weeks straight now. I'm enjoying it very much, again.
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Postby YesJo » Thu May 02, 2002 4:46 am

Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, I love The Ladder, every second of it, as if my personhood soaks it in to my being. I dance, I sing, I feel happy with this album. It just breaks my heart that they won't play songs from it on the radio. Lightning Strikes would sound so good on the radio. <img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle> I hope they play alot of The Ladder on the next tour but I don't know what to hope for.
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Postby perpetualchanger » Thu May 02, 2002 11:30 am

Nice to see this thread come back from the dead ... <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

It goes in phases with me. There are times I will listen to The Ladder over and over again, then I'll put it away for a month and do it again for a week or so.

My only true gripe with The Ladder is that there's not enough bass and drums for my taste (especially bass). That might be a mixing problem.

There's something about To Be Alive (Hep Yadda) that doesn't quite jive for me. I really like it and never skip it when I listen to the album, but I can't put my finger on what's not quite right about it and that always bothers me.

I even like If Only You Knew. So there. <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby Altair » Thu May 02, 2002 8:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>perpetualchanger wrote:</b>I even like If Only You Knew. So there. <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's no big deal. Take me, for instance. I'm the unorthodoxed Yes fan. The only cut I really don't care for (in totality) is Homeworld. It just runs too long for me. There are some nice changes and sections, but, it's one song that begins to test my patience. So, in that case, it's good for me to listen to...it'll build character. Bring on the Ladder!
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