Tormato, Animals & The Wall!



Postby chromatic88 » Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Altair wrote:</b>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>fragilesi wrote:</b>
And a final thought for Altair;
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>


Simon.
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Very interesting, indeed. Just imagine if Yes or Pink Floyd had sex appeal. Wow!

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Sex Appeal? Actually, if I recall, David Gilmour was modeling before he was asked to join Pink Floyd. So, while I am certainly no authority on male sex appeal, Mr. Gilmour must have had something going for him in that department!!

But being serious, bands like Floyd and Yes were often criticized as being "faceless" because they didn't flog a sex appeal image/weren't on the covers/weren't flashy. Actually, I think this helped contribute to both bands' mystique and helped them gather more staying power. A staying power, that I will bet, Britney Spears will never match.

But I've been wrong before!!
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Postby Jon Flanagan » Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:36 am

The whole concept of " who's better " when referring to bands and musicians is just plain ludicrous; trying to compare Gilmour to Howe is not only absurd, it's like saying a ferrari is superior to a lamborghini...their both outstanding performers...enjoy them both!
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Postby altodds » Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:25 am

I'm a Pink Floyd fan too!!!, And still collecting their CD's aside from YES, on my opinion , we can't compare those two diffrent bands, first of all I mentioned "diffrent" it means diffrent...Jon Flanagan is right... Ferrari is superior than Lamborghini... and Stoutman said "apple's or Oranges"... Still i'm on my words "to each to their own".Because if we use this "better" term that's where the problem starts, So let's enjoy what's fit for us, I enjoy listening to YES, and I enjoy Pink Floyd too, they have their own approach to the music world, all I can say is Thanks to those great musicians giving us this kind of enjoyment, if not for them , maybe I'm not on my computer this time and meeting with you guys or who knows....YES ROCKS...

altodds<<<>>>
ps. Hi Sound_Chaser...How are you?
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Postby fragilesi » Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Jon Flanagan wrote:</b>
The whole concept of " who's better " when referring to bands and musicians is just plain ludicrous; trying to compare Gilmour to Howe is not only absurd, it's like saying a ferrari is superior to a lamborghini...their both outstanding performers...enjoy them both!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well you may think so but some of us like to debate these things, it's the heart of what a message board is all about.

Simon.
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Postby Chris2210 » Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>sound_chaser wrote:</b>
I think these artists did create the envelope for others to follow. If you listen to early sixties singles, you can hear The Beatles everywhere. And in a similar way, Pink Floyd, from the influences which you have documented, also created an envelope through which others followed. Yes included! And that envelope is what we know and love as progressive music. Interstellar Overdrive from The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn, is I believe, the catalyst for progressive. That songs initial influence, may well be traced to The Byrds, Eight Miles High, which in turn was influenced by John Coltrane. But listen to Interstellar Overdrive again if you’ve got it. Pay special attention to the structure. Music like this had not existed before. And this is just the sanitised studio version. The freakouts at venues like the UFO in London, bore witness to the true twisted genius of Syd Barrett. But Syd was also a lyrical genius. He did for rock’n’roll, what Lewis Carroll did for literature. Syd Barrett was a one off. Pink Floyd could not have existed without him. In this country, only John Lennon would be his equal in fantasy. The lyrics of Lennon and Barrett, fuelled British psychedelia, which in turn evolved into progressive.
[quote]

<font color=red>I'm absent for a few days and Richard goes and starts one of the most interesting and controversial threads in a long while.

I'm pretty much aligned with my prog-rock double-take twin (Seb) on this one - I was pretty much nodding at the screen with each sentence.

To actually add something of my own to the debate though, I very recently acquired Piper - knowing it only by reputation before! The obverse side of the coin says that it is an innovative, creative extravaganza of an album. A work formed by a manic genius on the verge of insanity with no regard for convention. A coalescence of the excitement and zeitgeist of its age that was unprecedented in its brilliant originality. The obverse side of the argument, (especially listening to it outside the context of its time), is that it is the excessively self-indulgent childish meanderings of a spaced-out art-school dropout public schoolboy with a tenuous grip on reality. Lyrical genius? Honestly? JA comes in for a fair deal of criticism from many quarters (errr... you don't have to look too far for some of that <img src=pix/icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>), but I would be grateful if you could elucidate the genius in:

He wore a scarlet tunic, a blue-green hood, it looked quite good. He had a big adventure, amidst the grass, fresh air at last, wining, dining, biding his time...[THE GNOME]

or

I've got a cloak it's a bit of a joke, there's a tear up the front it's red and black, I've had it for months, If you think it could look good I guess it should. [BIKE]

Not only toe-curlingly awful (IMO), but repetitive as well. If there is irony in those lines it's just shot over my head like Concorde.

I think there are elements of truth in both sides of the argument, but of course our popular music critics are not people to take any sort of balance in their assessment of these things - such cultural phenomena have to be works of dazzling genius or total crap.

I think I'm with you on the cultural importance of rock and roll on our society in general - the Beatles WILL be remembered as amongst the most important figures in 20th century history. Post Fab-Four, it was not only respectable to be working class famous and respectable as a creative force, but almost <i>de riguer</i>, (which is why we got the rise of the 'mockney' and the disguising of middle-class roots (Stones/Floyd/Genesis all to some degree), especially in rock and roll. But I also agree with Alan, that none of this stuff happens in a vacuum and it is astonishingly difficult to separate what is true influence/innovation from what is more simply reflective of the social and cultural circumstances of the time.</font id=red>

[quote]
This is in no way, a Yes bashing exercise. I love the music. They did indeed push the progressive envelope in extraordinary ways. We can call The Gates Of Delirium, one of the finest pieces of music ever recorded. Which I think it is. But how many people outside of the faithful know of it? The sad fact is, Yes music does indeed exist in a vacuum these days. What Yes achieved is only recognised and admired by a tiny minority of music fans. The difference between Yes and Pink Floyd is, that if you could remove the influence every Yes album has had from history, it would make very little difference to rock’n’roll culture. If you imagine rock’n’roll as a raging river, then Yes music would occupy only a tributary. Conversely, if you removed the influence every Pink Floyd album has had, then the difference to rock’n’roll culture would be immense. Things just wouldn’t be the same. And back in that raging river analogy, Pink Floyd, I believe, are an undercurrent that drives and sustains the river. That’s how important I think they are!

sound_chaser
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<font color=red>And of course you would be quite correct if we could trust current taste and the consensus of contemporary music criticism. I'd argue it is possibly a bit early to make any final judgements. Bruckner and Mahler were not respected as composers in their own lifetimes - their stars have risen as their popular contemporaries have fallen into obscurity. Even the great JS Bach languished in the musical backwaters of history until his cause was championed by Mendlesohn and later Brahms. Vivaldi was not 'rediscovered' until the 1950s!

On the Gilmour vs. Howe issue, I like Gilmour's recognisably individual plangent and very heartfelt style, but if we have to compare... well I find his playing a little 'one-note'. For a one-trick-pony (god, I'm in a provocative mood<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>, it is a moving and hugely enjoyable trick - but for one mood only. I don't really give a damn about the relative technical proficiencies of the protagonists, (although I'm sure they do and would argue superior tools will aid a superior job). Howe can surprise inspire, delight and conjure a dizzying variety of moods from his huge sound-palette.

Well, that's my opinion and it smells fine to me.<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle></font id=red>
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Postby Chris2210 » Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:08 am

Cocked-up on the quoting - all the red stuff are my words and all the blue, Richard's. Can you sort this out for me Jeff? Cheers.
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Postby massos » Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:40 am

I am really enjoying reading this topic. However, lets not dismiss discussion and debate; as Simon said its what we are hear for.

I'm not questioning Pink Floyds contribution to music and originality but for me they don't really move me much; at least not 20 years down the road. Steve Howe IS a far superior technical performer than Gilmour. But technical proficiency doesn't count for anything at the end of the day if your not moved by the resulting music. Steve Howe surprises me, moves me, astounds me like no other guitarist on this earth; its as simple as that. YES as a band re-enforce that. Yep we are in a minority, but YES are probably the most significant thing to have happend to progressive music ever. Lets have this debate 100 years from now and there will only be one winner.
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Postby fragilesi » Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:07 pm

Chris, I think, wrote;

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I would be grateful if you could elucidate the genius in:

He wore a scarlet tunic, a blue-green hood, it looked quite good. He had a big adventure, amidst the grass, fresh air at last, wining, dining, biding his time...[THE GNOME]

or

I've got a cloak it's a bit of a joke, there's a tear up the front it's red and black, I've had it for months, If you think it could look good I guess it should. [BIKE]

Not only toe-curlingly awful (IMO), but repetitive as well. If there is irony in those lines it's just shot over my head like Concorde.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think that we should be careful about this because I'm sure we could extract a few lines of Anderson stuff (he did collaborate on the infamous Chez Nous you know!) and make it look bad . . . For example if you take;

Release, release, enough controllers, show some signs of appreciated loyalties

It hardly sounds like beautiful poetry that will roll off the toungue. I love Jon's lyrics generally but there are very few lyricists with a large body of work where you can't extract lines and make them look bad!

Simon.
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Postby Chris2210 » Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>fragilesi wrote:</b>
Chris, I think, wrote;

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I would be grateful if you could elucidate the genius in:

He wore a scarlet tunic, a blue-green hood, it looked quite good. He had a big adventure, amidst the grass, fresh air at last, wining, dining, biding his time...[THE GNOME]

or

I've got a cloak it's a bit of a joke, there's a tear up the front it's red and black, I've had it for months, If you think it could look good I guess it should. [BIKE]

Not only toe-curlingly awful (IMO), but repetitive as well. If there is irony in those lines it's just shot over my head like Concorde.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think that we should be careful about this because I'm sure we could extract a few lines of Anderson stuff (he did collaborate on the infamous Chez Nous you know!) and make it look bad . . . For example if you take;

Release, release, enough controllers, show some signs of appreciated loyalties

It hardly sounds like beautiful poetry that will roll off the toungue. I love Jon's lyrics generally but there are very few lyricists with a large body of work where you can't extract lines and make them look bad!

Simon.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Simon, of course you're right and I've made fun of some of Jon's lyrics in the past. The extracts I quoted were <b>entire verses</b> with just the point you're making in mind. Taken in the context of the whole of the songs they appear in, they just don't improve for me. In fact I think the extracts could lead you to infer there was more substance to the rest of the song's lyrics - and there just isn't. The delivery of the lines only reinforces the impression I get from them as well. I held back from quoting the entire songs to leave space for my own long-windedness.<img src=pix/icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

I must confess ignorance of any other Barrat lyrics apart from this album and the early singles, so I'm not judging the entire body of his work - I am of course playing agent provacateur. I anticipate the response that this is on the lines of Lear or Carollian whimsy, but I just don't see it.

There is brilliance and originality here; and elsewhere (Astronomy Domine, for instance), the approach is far more successful. I can't listen to the songs I've quoted from without cringing, however. What's that - he wrote them when he was eight? Oh, that's OK, then.<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/salook.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby sound_chaser » Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:26 pm

Chris, I must say I’m really surprised to see you taking this stance on Syd Barrett. I would have put you down as the one person on YEStalk who would have joined me in his defence. In an attempt to head me off at the pass, you have already dismissed the Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll whimsical connection. And another important factor which you have brushed over is the childlike quality. I accept your point of view, but I beg to differ. I believe Syd Barrett can be mentioned in that esteemed company. To get his message across, he didn’t have an entire book. He had a song. And in the case of The Gnome, one that clocked in at just over two minutes. These are the lyrics in full.

“I want to tell you a story, ‘bout a little man, if I can.
A Gnome named Grimble Gromble, and little Gnome’s stay in their homes.
Eating, sleeping, drinking their wine.

He wore a scarlet tunic, a blue green hood, it looked quite good.
He had a big adventure, amidst the grass, fresh air at last.
Wining, Dining, biding his time.

And then one day, Hooray, another way for Gnomes to say, HooooRay.

Look at the sky, look at the river, isn’t it good.
Look at the sky, look at the river, isn’t it good.

Winding, finding, places to go.

And then one day, Hooray, another way for gnomes to say, HoooooRay.”

Now if you can’t see Ratty, Toad, or Mole relating to those lyrics, then like I said at the start, I’m very surprised. For me, these lyrics are deeply evocative of The Wind In The Willows. The album is after all titled after the first chapter of that wonderful book. I think the wordplay is brilliant and the use of inner rhyme (man/ can, Gnome’s/homes, hood/good, grass/last) is very clever as well. Jackanory for acidheads! In a previous song, Matilda mother, Syd leaves you in no doubt of his childlike obsession with books.

“Why’d you have to leave me there, hanging in my infant air…Waiting,
You only have to read the lines, They’re scribbly black and everything…Shines!”

Surely you can identify with the beauty of that? Scribbly black words in books, have enchanted me my whole life. As have lyrics such as these. These are indeed lyrics for eight year olds. The eight year old in all of us!

But there’s so much more to that song than just the words. Syd’s music, really brings the words to life. When the song reaches the “And then one day, Hooray” part, can you not see the sun come bursting out from the clouds? Well you should! The acoustic guitar playing by Syd is so light and delicate. And behind that, you’ve got Rick Wright playing gorgeous, decorative electric piano, underscoring the childlike quality of this song. Syd’s dry, deadpan delivery is perfect as well.

But ultimately, you can dismiss all of the verses. Not that they’re tosh. No, it’s just that that’s not where the message is. The message is in the line,

“Look at the sky…Look at the river…Isn’t it good.”

In that one scribbly black line Chris, is the embodiment of the psychedelic experience. This is a Trip! The previous year, John Lennon was telling us to “Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream.” Syd Barrett heard him and gave us music from way downstream. LSD, was the way of the future back in 1965/6/7. Pop music, art and literature from that period, is crammed full of references to turning on. It was if those who were “experienced”, to quote Jimi Hendrix, felt a great need to implore others to join them on the trip. Syd Barrett played a prominent role. His style of writing would be much aped over the coming year-The Move and Traffic particularly spring to mind. Much of that would become what is known as cod-psychedelia, but Syd Barrett was the genuine article, 100%!

In the song Bike, I again think you’re missing the point. Yes the lyrics are childlike and downright silly. Again though, Syd’s deadpan delivery shows his tongue is firmly in his cheek. But the verses aren’t where the real message is. Listen to the final section after Syd says to his intended conquest,

“I know a room of musical tunes, some rhyme, some ching, most of them are clockwork.
Let’s go into the other room and make them work.”

And then he takes us into the other room. He’s assumed that we are as bombed out as he is. He then proceeds to deliver the most fucked up cacophony of noise imaginable. This was the real world of Syd Barrett. Heaven and Hell…Which was what LSD would give the user. It’s important to remember Syd wasn’t mad at this point. He was a super intelligent, full of life freak, whose LSD nightmare was just around the corner. And one final thing to N2. Peter Banks was never, ever in the same league as Syd Barrett was. Peter was a very good guitarist for sure. But have no doubt, Syd Barrett was a genius! In terms of influence, he can stand judgement with Steve Howe and even Jimi Hendrix!
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Postby Yeswhole » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:35 pm

I've tried to get into Pink Floyd, but never could. It mostly seemed to be a lot of teenage self-indulgent agnst lyrics. Good for a disenfranchised 14 year old going through puberty, but not for me (even at 14). If you constantly listen to Floyd's whineing, adolesent music it will wear on you. Yes, by contrast, is almost always uplifting and that will wear on you too, in a positive way. I get real bored with the shitty world view I find expressed in Pink Floyd.
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Postby Sam » Fri Mar 22, 2002 12:15 am

This is a very interesting discussion, and I would like to add my half-baked two cents. I will preface my statement by saying that I much prefer to listen to Yes than Pink Floyd. I find their music much more interesting and technically intricate. That being said, I find Pink Floyd more lyrically compelling. Yes' lyrics tend toward imagery more than direct social commentary. I am more moved by the statements being made by Syd and more particularly Roger. Its true that the world view of Yes is apparently much more uplifting than that of Pink Floyd, but can be too sweet at times, and like all sugar overdoses - cloyingly unappetizing in large quantities. When Jon attempts social commentary, we can wind up with the ridiculous - That, That Is jumps immediately to mind.

Like I said though, I would much rather listen to Yes. But the importance and influence of Pink Floyd can not be understated. I just don't like to listen to them in large measures.
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Postby Ed1909 » Fri Mar 22, 2002 6:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>sound_chaser wrote:</b>
Chris, I must say I’m really surprised to see you taking this stance on Syd Barrett. I would have put you down as the one person on YEStalk who would have joined me in his defence. In an attempt to head me off at the pass, you have already dismissed the Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll whimsical connection. And another important factor which you have brushed over is the childlike quality. I accept your point of view, but I beg to differ. I believe Syd Barrett can be mentioned in that esteemed company. To get his message across, he didn’t have an entire book. He had a song. And in the case of The Gnome, one that clocked in at just over two minutes. These are the lyrics in full.

“I want to tell you a story, ‘bout a little man, if I can.
A Gnome named Grimble Gromble, and little Gnome’s stay in their homes.
Eating, sleeping, drinking their wine.

He wore a scarlet tunic, a blue green hood, it looked quite good.
He had a big adventure, amidst the grass, fresh air at last.
Wining, Dining, biding his time.

And then one day, Hooray, another way for Gnomes to say, HooooRay.

Look at the sky, look at the river, isn’t it good.
Look at the sky, look at the river, isn’t it good.

Winding, finding, places to go.

And then one day, Hooray, another way for gnomes to say, HoooooRay.”

Now if you can’t see Ratty, Toad, or Mole relating to those lyrics, then like I said at the start, I’m very surprised. For me, these lyrics are deeply evocative of The Wind In The Willows. The album is after all titled after the first chapter of that wonderful book. I think the wordplay is brilliant and the use of inner rhyme (man/ can, Gnome’s/homes, hood/good, grass/last) is very clever as well. Jackanory for acidheads! In a previous song, Matilda mother, Syd leaves you in no doubt of his childlike obsession with books.

“Why’d you have to leave me there, hanging in my infant air…Waiting,
You only have to read the lines, They’re scribbly black and everything…Shines!”

Surely you can identify with the beauty of that? Scribbly black words in books, have enchanted me my whole life. As have lyrics such as these. These are indeed lyrics for eight year olds. The eight year old in all of us!

But there’s so much more to that song than just the words. Syd’s music, really brings the words to life. When the song reaches the “And then one day, Hooray” part, can you not see the sun come bursting out from the clouds? Well you should! The acoustic guitar playing by Syd is so light and delicate. And behind that, you’ve got Rick Wright playing gorgeous, decorative electric piano, underscoring the childlike quality of this song. Syd’s dry, deadpan delivery is perfect as well.

But ultimately, you can dismiss all of the verses. Not that they’re tosh. No, it’s just that that’s not where the message is. The message is in the line,

“Look at the sky…Look at the river…Isn’t it good.”

In that one scribbly black line Chris, is the embodiment of the psychedelic experience. This is a Trip! The previous year, John Lennon was telling us to “Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream.” Syd Barrett heard him and gave us music from way downstream. LSD, was the way of the future back in 1965/6/7. Pop music, art and literature from that period, is crammed full of references to turning on. It was if those who were “experienced”, to quote Jimi Hendrix, felt a great need to implore others to join them on the trip. Syd Barrett played a prominent role. His style of writing would be much aped over the coming year-The Move and Traffic particularly spring to mind. Much of that would become what is known as cod-psychedelia, but Syd Barrett was the genuine article, 100%!

In the song Bike, I again think you’re missing the point. Yes the lyrics are childlike and downright silly. Again though, Syd’s deadpan delivery shows his tongue is firmly in his cheek. But the verses aren’t where the real message is. Listen to the final section after Syd says to his intended conquest,

“I know a room of musical tunes, some rhyme, some ching, most of them are clockwork.
Let’s go into the other room and make them work.”

And then he takes us into the other room. He’s assumed that we are as bombed out as he is. He then proceeds to deliver the most fucked up cacophony of noise imaginable. This was the real world of Syd Barrett. Heaven and Hell…Which was what LSD would give the user. It’s important to remember Syd wasn’t mad at this point. He was a super intelligent, full of life freak, whose LSD nightmare was just around the corner. And one final thing to N2. Peter Banks was never, ever in the same league as Syd Barrett was. Peter was a very good guitarist for sure. But have no doubt, Syd Barrett was a genius! In terms of influence, he can stand judgement with Steve Howe and even Jimi Hendrix!

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Soundchaser - a very well-reasoned and persuasive argument in Syd's favour, and I have been known to enjoy many of the Syd songs, but on the level. I cannot, however, appreciate the 'genius'. (Maybe I should try to analyse more!)

IMO, the emperor is wearing no clothes!

<hr>No matter how fast or how far you run, you're still in the space where you are.
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Postby Ed1909 » Fri Mar 22, 2002 6:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Yeswhole wrote:</b>
It mostly seemed to be a lot of teenage self-indulgent agnst lyrics.

I get real bored with the shitty world view I find expressed in Pink Floyd.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Agree with you on Waters' lyrics - although I appreciate the musical qualities of Pink Floyd, Waters is often so far up his own ass (especially The Final Cut, which is essentially a Waters solo effort).


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Postby Sandya Maulana » Fri Mar 22, 2002 10:21 pm

I'm sorry, I'm late.
Comparing Floyd and Yes, was just like comparing and apple and an orange. You don't know which is better, especially if you like them both. If you don't like the apple, you'd choose the orange. If you don't like orange, you'd choose the apple. If you don't like both of them, it doesn't matter, maybe you'll love banana. Every opinion is subjective, I know it. But I would say that I like apple and orange, but I like banana too. (Shit! What the hell am I talking about? Am I drunk?)
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Postby Ed1909 » Fri Mar 22, 2002 10:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Sandya Maulana wrote:</b>
If you don't like the apple, you'd choose the orange. If you don't like orange, you'd choose the apple. If you don't like both of them, it doesn't matter, maybe you'll love banana. Every opinion is subjective, I know it. But I would say that I like apple and orange, but I like banana too. (Shit! What the hell am I talking about? Am I drunk?)
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So who is the banana? ELP? Genesis? <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/silly.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>No matter how fast or how far you run, you're still in the space where you are.
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Postby psychopomp95 » Sat Mar 23, 2002 7:33 am

I have to say that, although I only have a few PF albums (Dark Side, WYWH, The Wall, and the two after Waters, plus Echoes), I have been hearing them since I was a LITTLE kid, and they've always been in my head! (Explains how messed up I am!! <img src=pix/icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Yeah, Waters' world-view can wear on you, but I guess since I've always taken a slightly darker look at people, I can understand what he has to say... that said, for me NOTHING beats the two latter-day Pink Floyd albums for sheer soundscapes!! (And the lyrics, contrary to what a lot of people might say, I think are very good as well, not quite as dark as Roger's!) Not even Yes, actually... probably the main reason I like 'Talk' so much is that the Pink Floyd influence is stronger on that album than on any other of Yes' works!
If you had to ask me which band I honestly LIKE better, I couldn't say for sure... I'm a bigger FAN of Yes, by far (way more albums, I collect their bootlegs, I've seen them live), but there's always a lot of external reasons for that, not just the music!
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Postby sound_chaser » Sat Mar 23, 2002 5:50 pm

Ed, I suppose if the first Floyd album was all there was to Syd, then The Emperor may indeed be in the Altogether! But after The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn was released, the story becomes a whole lot darker. As 1967 wore on, Syd’s prodigious intake of LSD and other drugs began to take their toll. It is from this period on, that has so preoccupied Roger waters and David Gilmour. Where once Syd had been a dynamic bright eyed artist, he slowly became more withdrawn and distant. Distant to the point of not taking part in the real world at all. Not only was there nobody home, but the lights weren’t even on! On a package tour of the UK, Jimi Hendrix took to calling him Laughing Syd Barrett, because the exact opposite was true.

But throughout his decline, Syd’s talent didn’t desert him. One of the most fascinating things about Syd Barrett, is that he documented his downward spiral into a mental illness which would be all consuming! As Syd became more and more unreliable, so it became apparent to the rest of the group that something had to be done. Here they were, a successful hit making band and their leader was seriously losing the plot. There’s an instance of a television appearance, where Syd’s makeup included greasing his hair with a mixture of gel and Mandrax tablets, which would slide down his face under the spotlights. On another TV appearance in America, Syd’s performance was to just stand there staring blankly ahead. He must have been taking the piss as well, because during rehearsals, he would mime his part, only to clam up during recording. Eventually Roger Waters mimed Syd’s vocal.

Another dimension of Syd, was that he hated having to do multiple takes in the studio. Once he had put his part down, that was it as far as he was concerned. There’s a famous story about how he tricked Roger Waters, whilst teaching him a new song which was called Have You Got It Yet? Every time Roger thought he’d nailed it, Syd would change the melody and the chord sequence and keep singing to him, “Have You Got It Yet?” Much to Waters frustration, he didn’t.

So like I say, something had to be done.

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Postby sound_chaser » Sat Mar 23, 2002 6:16 pm

And that something came in the shape of David Gilmour! Gilmour had known the band from their Cambridge youth and he was recruited from his own band, Joker’s Wild. Gilmour’s initial brief, was to watch Syd and cover what he wasn’t playing. So for a short while, Pink Floyd were a five piece and there are some interesting photographs of this short-lived moment. After a while of gigging up and down the country, the new member began to dominate and one day when leaving for a gig, it was decided not to pick Syd up at all. This was Syd’s band and he was out! Another reason for the obsession that Roger Waters has had with Syd over the years.

The band went into the studio to record their second album. Two songs which Syd had written, Scream Thy Last Scream Old Woman In a Casket and Vegetable Man. Both of these songs are a huge move away from the lightness of touch on much of Piper. Both songs were rejected by the band. They are however much bootlegged, so you’ll find them on the internet, if you care to look. Only one Syd song made A Saucerful Of Secrets and that was, Jugband Blues. This is a very depressing song to listen to. Macabre almost. This is where Syd Barrett knew he was beyond reach, but was still able to sing about it anyway.

Jugband Blues.

“It’s awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I’m most obliged to you for making it clear, that I’m not here.
And I never knew the moon could be so big.
And I never knew the moon could be so blue.
And I’m grateful that you threw away my old shoes.
And bought me here instead, dress in red!

And I’m wondering who could be writing this song….
I don’t care if the sun don’t shine,
And I don’t care if nothing is mine.
And I don’t care if I’m nervous with you.
I’ll do my loving in the sunshine.

And the sea isn’t green,
And I love the queen,
And what exactly is a dream?
And what exactly is a joke?"

Jugband Blues, is a remarkable song! Syd’s performance is so fragile. And to make it even more bizarre, there’s a Salvation Army band in the middle section. Poor Mad Syd!!! And Roger Waters tormented him mercilessly!

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Postby Sandya Maulana » Sat Mar 23, 2002 6:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Ed1909 wrote:</b>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Sandya Maulana wrote:</b>
If you don't like the apple, you'd choose the orange. If you don't like orange, you'd choose the apple. If you don't like both of them, it doesn't matter, maybe you'll love banana. Every opinion is subjective, I know it. But I would say that I like apple and orange, but I like banana too. (Shit! What the hell am I talking about? Am I drunk?)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So who is the banana? ELP? Genesis? <img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/silly.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>No matter how fast or how far you run, you're still in the space where you are.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Come on, Ed! I'm an all-fruit eater!
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Postby sound_chaser » Sat Mar 23, 2002 6:43 pm

A Saucerful Of Secrets, saw the advent of Pink Floyd Mk. 2. And a fantastic period this is. It takes us from A Saucerful Of Secrets, through to Wish You Were Here. This was Pink Floyd, as democratic band. But back to Syd. Syd left the band and Pink Floyd’s management team went with him, thinking they would stay with the creative force of the band! Syd was now a solo artist and he was going to be a star! Unfortunately, it didn’t work out quite like that. Syd went into the studio to record his album, The Madcap Laughs. Now this is where things start to get really depressing. This is the true sound of an insane person! And yet still Syd’s talent shone through. Some songs are barely played at all. If it hadn’t have been for David Gilmour, this album and the subsequent, Barrett, wouldn’t have happened at all.

It’s on these albums and the outtakes album, Opal, that the myth of Syd Barrett still lives on. If you want to know how Roger Waters came to write The Wall, check out the recent compilation, Wouldn’t You Miss Me? This is humanity stripped bare! You may think it’s unpalatable, but mental illness is a sad fact of life. We will all of us have been touched by it in our lives in one way or another!

In the early seventies, Syd retreated from the music scene altogether and walked all the way back to his Mothers house in Cambridge where he has lived ever since. The last contact any member of Pink Floyd had with him was when the band were recording Wish You Were Here. As they turned up in the studio, they were surprised to find a fat bald headed man sitting in a corner. Nobody knew who he was, until suddenly somebody realised it was Syd. The band were in tears. This was probably one of the saddest moments of their entire lives. And the song they were recording? Shine On You Crazy Diamond, Waters requiem for Syd.

So next time you accuse Roger Waters of being depressive, realise that he’s writing from experience. At one time, he must have felt tremendous guilt for the way he particularly had treated Syd. But at the time, Waters himself was only a young man. He was ambitious and driven. He saw his fame being washed down the toilet and had to do something. And how could he possibly have known what was really happening inside of Syd? They just thought he was to fond of getting stoned. Writing The Wall, is I believe Roger Waters heartfelt apology to Syd Barrett. And I for one, think he did him justice!

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Postby Chris2210 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 7:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>sound_chaser wrote:</b>
Ed, I suppose if the first Floyd album was all there was to Syd, then The Emperor may indeed be in the Altogether! But after The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn was released, the story becomes a whole lot darker.

sound_chaser <img src=pix/icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Richard, you've almost battered me into submission by your depth of knowledge on this and sheer enthusiasm! I've certainly learned a bit from your posts and, as I admitted, 'Piper' and the singles are the only Barret material I know of.

In terms of the whimsical influences that you cite there is always some dimension of wit in the writing and it's the seeming absence of that which separates the childlike from the simply childish for me. The tragedy of Syd's life lends a bitter edge to those lyrics as the expression of a trip. But I think if you compare and contrast with the Lennon lyrics you quoted from Revolver or Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds I think the conclusion that you're encountering something far more lucid, original and literate in Lennon, is inescapable.

I really wish I knew more of the early Pink Floyd and Syd Barret solo material, because knowing only 'half the story', it's easy to end up talking from the wrong end of your anatomy. I think emotional attachment has a part to play in assessing lyrics - that isn't meant to imply a criticism of any sort, because I think I value Jon's lyrics more highly than I might because I have a fondness for them.

I've said in the past that it is probably unfair to divorce lyrics from their musical context. Usually they're never meant to stand alone and words can take on an overwhelming force when backed by music that has the right emotional resonance. That is perhaps crucial in the topic of Syd's lyrics - I find the music interesting and certainly, it is groundbreaking in the context of it's time. I suppose the bottom line is that Floyd's music as a whole just doesn't have the <i>self-contained</i> fascination for me that Yes music does and doesn't even come close in terms of emotional force.

This must also be partially down to propinquity, as I'm a fairly late-comer to the 'prog-scene' (around '75 - that'll make some of our younger friends laugh<img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>). I wouldn't claim my appreciation of the music is devoid of social and cultural associations on a subliminal level - far from it - but I don't have the first hand experience of that late sixties scene and the social revolution that went along with it. The long winded point I finally arrive at, (having just blundered into the sign-post, so to speak), is that possibly we are both a bit too close, (albeit at slightly differing points!), to make anything like truly objective judgements. It may just be that in 50 years time posterity would throw up something which would surprise us all.

Enjoyable debate, nontheless!
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Postby Bass_Player99 » Fri Apr 05, 2002 11:19 am

I think that Pink Floyd and Yes are two bands that you really can't compare. Their styles of music are totally different. Yes for sure has the better musicians, no offense to David Gilmour, but Floyd has the lyrics. Floyds lyricks also have a much more deeper meaning then any Yes song. I love Yes but you're right that Yes dissapeared after Going for the One.
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Postby N2yes » Fri Apr 05, 2002 11:40 am

<font color=red>A highly debatable point, BP!!!</font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr>"Spirit of emotion dancing through the wind"
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Postby fragilesi » Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>Bass_Player99 wrote:</b>
I think that Pink Floyd and Yes are two bands that you really can't compare. Their styles of music are totally different. Yes for sure has the better musicians, no offense to David Gilmour, but Floyd has the lyrics. Floyds lyricks also have a much more deeper meaning then any Yes song. I love Yes but you're right that Yes dissapeared after Going for the One.
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More deeper meaning to who exactly? It's much easier - imho - to write the conventional kind of meaningful lyrics than something like Close to the Edge with it's multi-themed structure including Siddartha.

Anyway, welcome BP, good to see you aboard.

Simon.
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Postby bataisflow » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:50 am

Britney forever Yeah. SHe has promised to tour in 2025 for her 30th anniversary tour - that should be a good one eh?
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Postby perpetualchanger » Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>bataisflow wrote:</b>
Britney forever Yeah. SHe has promised to tour in 2025 for her 30th anniversary tour - that should be a good one eh?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hopefully by then everyone will be saying "Britney WHO?"

<hr>Check out my fan page at www.thecluster.com/yes.html
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