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Did Heart "Go Crazy On" Steve Howe?



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Did Heart "Go Crazy On" Steve Howe?

Postby InThePresenceOf » Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:08 am

Listening tonight to "Crazy on You" on the radio, I was struck again by something I previously thought: both the guitar work in the beginning of the song and a recurring riff throughout it seem to borrow heavily from Mr. Howe's signature sound, so much so that I was wondering if he contributed to the song. (According to their discography at www.annandnancy.com, he didn't). And although both Heart and Yes share the same management team these days, I see no other evidence of such a crossover. But has anyone else had this thought about "Crazy on You?"

Or am I just crazy? - ITPO
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Postby InThePresenceOf » Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:53 am

Just FYI, here is the discography info for Dreamboat Annie, on which "Crazy on You" first appeared.

1976 - HEART
Dreamboat Annie


1.
Magic Man


2.
Dreamboat Annie


3.
Crazy on you


4.
Soul of the Sea


5.
Dreamboat Annie


6.
White Lightning and Wine


7.
(Love Me Like Music) I'll Be Your Song


8.
Sing Child


9.
How Deep it Goes


10.
Dreamboat Annie (Reprised)



Performers
Roy Ayotte: Conga and Percussion
Tesse Bensussen: Vocals and Background Vocals
Robert Deans: Keyboards, Piano, and Synthesizer
Michael DeRosier: Drums
Roger Fisher: Guitar (Acoustic) Guitar (Electric) Guitar (Steel)
Mike Flicker: Percussion and Tympani
Steve Fossen: Bass and Percussion
Geoff Foubert: Banjo, Vocals, and Background Vocals
Kat Hendrikse: Drums
Jim Hill: Vocals and Background Vocals
Howard Leese: Bells, Guitar, Electric Guitar, Keyboards, Synthesizer and Vocals
Duris Maxwell: Drums
Brian Newcombe: Bass
Ann Wilson: Flute, Guitar, Keyboards, Violin, Vocals and Background Vocals
David Wilson: Drums
Nancy Wilson: Guitar, 12 String Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Guitar, Piano, Vocals and Background Vocals

Production Credits
Mike Flicker: Arranger, Engineer, and Producer
Heart: Main Performer
Rolf Henneman: Engineer


Chart debut 4/10/76
Peak chart position #7
Weeks on charts: 100
Platinum
Includes the singles "Crazy On You" (#35, 4/17/76), "Magic Man" (#9, 7/17/76) and "Dreamboat Annie" (#42, 12/18/76)
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Postby perpetualchanger » Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:31 pm

I know the bit you're talking about and it did sound like Steve the first time I heard it.

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Postby N2yes » Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:39 pm

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>I have to say that I don't see it at all and being a HEART fanatic for many years, I'd like to think I have a pretty good angle on this one. Roger Fisher's style in conjunction with Nancy Wilson's strumming doesn't even come close except for that little lead riff Fisher does at various points during the number ( none are at the beginning ). One is after the line Ann sings, "What you gonna do" and the other is just before the crescendo effect as the vocals come back in prior to the song's ending. Those 'spots' do sound somewhat "Steve-ish" but since Fisher was a fine guitarist in his own right, I doubt there was even the remotest connection.</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby CoinsAndCrosses » Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:52 am

It has always seemed to me that Heart were trying to do their own version of "Yours Is No Disgrace" with "Crazy on You". Listen to them both and see if you don't see the similarities in both songs....chris

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Postby N2yes » Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:24 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Just for shits and giggles, I just did....three times, and again, I see no similarities whatsoever...none! So, this presents me with the need to ask, where on earth do you see this connection ( um, make that hear the connection ) </font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby InThePresenceOf » Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:35 am

Entoo, looks like you are outvoted on this one... in fact I went to Amazon.com and found the following review of "Dreamboat Annie" by a fellow progger:


Dreamboat Album!, May 4, 2002
Reviewer: Thomas Hill (see more about me) from Austin,Tx

Boy this is good classic 70's rock. Ann Wilson does sound like Led Zeppelin's [angry] (but vulnerable) little sister. That child can sing! The masculine howl of her vocals is terribly sexy and beautiful to hear. The guitar accompaniment to the stunning vocals is more than notable. At times it sounds like Zeppelin, Kansas, Hendryx, and even Steve Howe but in the end, no real connection can be drawn to any of them. I admire the percussion which is lively and delivered with authority. The thematic approach in the album is also pleasing to me, a prog fan. The songwriting on this debut is exceptional and the vocal melodies for the lighter tunes are moving. There is a mood that hovers over this album that is not so much conceptual (despite the recurring versions of the title track)as it is musical. The sound quality of the production is brilliant. I remember hearing this as a kid in the mid-seventies and thinking this mad woman of the mic had just come straight from hell with some powerful things to say and an adept band of musical demons to back her up. It's tough to imagine that anyone involved with the mid-eighties Heart had anything to do with this. It has a style of its own and it takes its place among rock's best works.....and rightfully so!
*************
note the "and even Steve Howe" line...
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Postby N2yes » Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:03 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>I could care less about being outnumbered. Lol, just because this one person says that by no means qualifies him as an authority. Those tiny little lead riffs are the only possible similarities as I see anywhere. However, I will agree with the assertion that Heart sounds a bit like Led Zeppelin's angry little sister. Anyone who attended Heart concerts back in the good ol' daze will tell ya that their encores often consisted of at least one Zep number if not two!

Sorry, but other than those insignificant little riffs I acknowledged, any similarities remain opaque in the extreme. IMHO.

Note the "...no real connection can be drawn to any of them". Oh and btw, we were talking about the song, "Crazy on You"...not the album from whence it came.</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby InThePresenceOf » Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>N2yes wrote:</b>
[red]<font face='Papyrus'>I could care less about being outnumbered. Lol, just because this one person says that by no means qualifies him as an authority.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

N2, my only point is that others have agreed with what I've said, so it's not as outlandish as you make it sound...even you have said that what you call the "little lead riffs" are similar. All I was referring to in the song were those, and also the part in the beginning, which is "classical" guitar unlike the rock sound in the rest of the song. Perhaps I should have clarified that I DON'T think that the signature riff of the song -- that 7-note riff that anyone would recognize as "Crazy on You" if you sang it -- sounds like Steve. It's just the beginning, which reminds me of the feel of "Mood for a Day," and those small recurring riffs, what I would call "trills," that I think sound like Steve.
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Postby EricBliss12345 » Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:15 am

Not even close. Nowhere NEAR close. I'm sorry but these comparisons sound like a result of overly-imaginative-imagination syndrome. That's like saying "Satisfaction" and "Machine Messiah" sound a lot alike because they're in the same key.

Plus, whilst defending yourself, Ms. Presence, you totally canceled yourself out right here:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> At times it sounds like Zeppelin, Kansas, Hendryx, and even Steve Howe but in the end, no real connection can be drawn to any of them. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So it doesn't matter if me or N2 are outnumbered or not, you're wrong because, well....you're wrong! <img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/jestera.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Postby N2yes » Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:47 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'> And there you have it my dear, the Bliss/Butterworth team has delivered the N2 punch! I understand your point, Ruthie though I don't agree. Others apparently do see it ( not the structure, I know that's not what you're referring to )but some of us don't. Oh well. BTW, I have DREAMBOAT ANNIE on CD that comes in a little LP package...it's the neatest thing!</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby InThePresenceOf » Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:45 am

Wow, you guys are awfully ticked off and bitter over something that was never put out there as a challenge or a fight. Have your own opinions all you want. Merely being told by two people that you just don't hear it or see a similarity hasn't changed my mind.

Just to clarify, EricBliss, when I read that review with "no real connection can be drawn," I interpreted it to mean that Howe and the others did not ACTUALLY contribute, i.e. write the music or play on the Heart album. No doubt that is what the author intended it to mean, because he said, AT TIMES IT SOUNDS LIKE Zeppelin, Howe, etc.

I think you both need to chill!!
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Postby N2yes » Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:10 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Ruthie, you're reading this wrong. Did you happen to notice the "lol's " along with Eric's smilies?? Apparently not because if you did, you would not be so defensive. Trust me, we are not angry, preturbed or anything. In fact, my last message to you was to let you know that though we did not agree, I understood as they were obviously others under the impression that there was a Howe-something there. Please, don't try and read emotions into words with no face to back it up. We really weren't challenging you at all.</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=pix/icon_smokin.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby InThePresenceOf » Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:43 am

No harm done N2... when you're as right as I am you don't have to argue about it... LOLOLOL
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Postby gtrpir8 » Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:04 pm

I think I'll chime in with one little tidbit. Nancy Wilson, who played the very nice acoustic piece at the intro to Crazy On You, has cited Steve Howe as a big influence for her. I gleaned this from a Guitar Player magazine interview conducted around 1980, I believe. Otherwise, the only firm similarity I find in Crazy On You and the Steve Howe "sound" is the use of hybrid picking, whereupon a plectrum is used simultaneously with finger picking to sound the strings, all in the intro to the song.
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Postby InThePresenceOf » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>gtrpir8 wrote:</b>
I think I'll chime in with one little tidbit. Nancy Wilson, who played the very nice acoustic piece at the intro to Crazy On You, has cited Steve Howe as a big influence for her. I gleaned this from a Guitar Player magazine interview conducted around 1980, I believe. Otherwise, the only firm similarity I find in Crazy On You and the Steve Howe "sound" is the use of hybrid picking, whereupon a plectrum is used simultaneously with finger picking to sound the strings, all in the intro to the song.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Cool, I would love to see that done...! Never heard of the term hybrid picking. Any guitar players out there care to weigh in?
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Postby gtrpir8 » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>InThePresenceOf wrote:</b>
Cool, I would love to see that done...! Never heard of the term hybrid picking. Any guitar players out there care to weigh in?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hybrid picking is simply using a plectrum as one normally would (usually between thumb and index finger), and augmenting that by plucking strings with any or all remaining unused fingers. The best example of Howe using this technique is Clap; Heart of the Sunrise (particularly the first verse) and Starship Trooper ("speak to me of summer...") also spring to mind. I'm not sure of the origin, but I've read that country guitarists from the 1950's used this technique, and maybe jazz guitarists from earlier than that.
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Postby InThePresenceOf » Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:19 am

I always wondered how Howe made Clap sound like there were 2 guitars, and in fact I thought it WAS 2 guitars playing until I saw it performed live, and was in shock...of course, I couldn't see up close how it was done, and even if I was close, it would be too quick for me to really tell. That is unbelievable. Of course, he makes it look so easy... thanks for explaining!!!
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Postby yesman90125 » Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:06 am

I have to say I dont see the connection at all
if I remember right the intro to "crazy on You" is an acoustic guitar playing A-minor then switching to F-Maj-7 .
2 Chords
which actually are a speeded up ripoff of David Gilmours work on Pink floyds annimals
"you got to be crazy-gotta have a real need gotta sleep on your toes
when your on the street- got to be able to pick out the easy meat -with your eyes closed"
as far as the referenced notes
G-A-F,E,D,C,B-G
THAT RUN(or variations therof) IS A COMMON TO 70's rock as it is to
most modern country .
for you non musician types just know its as easy to play as it is common-
I think Steve generally was looking to make things a bit more special-to not nessisarily play "what everyone else was playing"
I just dont see the connection
Led Zeppelin for sure but steve no
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Postby InThePresenceOf » Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>yesman90125 wrote:</b>
I have to say I dont see the connection at all
if I remember right the intro to "crazy on You" is an acoustic guitar playing A-minor then switching to F-Maj-7 .
2 Chords
which actually are a speeded up ripoff of David Gilmours work on Pink floyds annimals
"you got to be crazy-gotta have a real need gotta sleep on your toes
when your on the street- got to be able to pick out the easy meat -with your eyes closed"
as far as the referenced notes
G-A-F,E,D,C,B-G
THAT RUN(or variations therof) IS A COMMON TO 70's rock as it is to
most modern country .
for you non musician types just know its as easy to play as it is common-
I think Steve generally was looking to make things a bit more special-to not nessisarily play "what everyone else was playing"
I just dont see the connection
Led Zeppelin for sure but steve no

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

LOL -- N2 how much did you pay him?!?? ROFLMAO
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Postby NineLives » Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:14 am



Back in the 70's, during the "Dog & Butterfly" tour, Guitar Player Magazine did a cover feature on Heart. For this feature, Roger Fisher, Steve Fossen, Howard Leese, and Nancy Wilson were extensively interviewed about their instruments, influences, and guitar-playing in general. In Nancy's feature she most definitely lists Steve Howe as an important influence. Although she didn't mention the "Crazy On You" intro specifically, I've always heard Steve's influence in that bit, as well as the mandolin work throughout "Dream Of The Archer," and the acoustic guitar work on "Love Alive" - these latter two appear on the "Little Queen" album.

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Postby N2yes » Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:58 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>For those of you with no Heart ( excuse the pun, it was deliberate ), <i>LITTLE QUEEN</i> is the one with "Barracuda" on it.</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby yesman90125 » Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>InThePresenceOf wrote:</b>
[quote]
[
LOL -- N2 how much did you pay him?!?? ROFLMAO
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
N2 please send me my $10 now
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Postby N2yes » Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:05 am

<font color=red><font face='Papyrus'>Damn, and I was hoping we could keep this under wraps! Hey! How in hell could I ever forget that addy??</font id='Papyrus'></font id=red><img src=pix/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Postby gtrpir8 » Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>yesman90125 wrote:</b>
I have to say I dont see the connection at all
if I remember right the intro to "crazy on You" is an acoustic guitar playing A-minor then switching to F-Maj-7 .
2 Chords
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I wonder if you're thinking of the single edit, that started out with the acoustic guitar simply playing Am and F in a strum pattern. The album intro does start in Am, using the plectrum to drone on the root of the chord while using fingers to generate a little melody. That open Am shape is then raised two frets, while still droning on the A in the bass, and then raised one more fret with an open A shape. While I can't remember the rest, nor am I familiar enough with tab to try to tab it out, Nancy definitely hybrid picks in this intro-before the-intro, ending with Dm and E before slamming into the familiar Am-F strum that starts the single edit of Crazy On You. I'm not saying that the extended intro is as involved as Clap - obviously far from it - but it does pay homage to Steve's influence on Nancy Wilson.
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Postby InThePresenceOf » Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:20 pm

Actually I think I likened the intro to "Mood For A Day," not to "Clap."
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Postby gtrpir8 » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<b>InThePresenceOf wrote:</b>
Actually I think I likened the intro to "Mood For A Day," not to "Clap."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You did refer to Mood For A Day.
I was the one who refered to Clap, specifically as a good example of hybrid picking, which I indicated as being possibly where Nancy Wilson was influenced by Steve Howe. That was my main point; that Nancy listed Steve as an influence.
I believe that Mood For A Day is done with straight finger picking - no plectrum in hand at all, at least not nowadays, so I felt Clap was the better example of the technique. I made no mention of "feel"; I was simply chiming in on a technique often used by Howe and it's possible influence on Nancy Wilson.
And Ninelives, that cover story is the one I remember reading, thank you! I've got it buried away somewhere at home; now I'll have to dig it out, along with the three Steve Howe GP covers, and the one Trevor Rabin article I archived. Now, where the !@#$ are they??!?
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Postby yesman90125 » Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

I wonder if you're thinking of the single edit, that started out with the acoustic guitar simply playing Am and F in a strum pattern. The album intro does start in Am, using the plectrum to drone on the root of the chord while using fingers to generate a little melody. That open Am shape is then raised two frets, while still droning on the A in the bass, and then raised one more fret with an open A shape. While I can't remember the rest, nor am I familiar enough with tab to try to tab it out, Nancy definitely hybrid picks in this intro-before the-intro, ending with Dm and E before slamming into the familiar Am-F strum that starts the single edit of Crazy On You. I'm not saying that the extended intro is as involved as Clap - obviously far from it - but it does pay homage to Steve's influence on Nancy Wilson.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></font id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I actually had to download the song to relisten to that intro and your right I was thinking about the edit usually played as a single
i totally forgot about that short little piece
and i suppose I do see the connection or at least the nod to steve
when you started describing it i pulled out the guitar and followed what you were talking about and It sounded familiar
so i downloaded it and sure enough
the hybrid picking is the connection to steve

does that mean I have to give N2 back his $10

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Re: Did Heart

Postby Onetimepost » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:35 am

16 years later, I feel obliged to settle this debate. I, too, was struck by the similarities between Howe's signature style and the fingerwork in "Crazy on You." Not only does the song's acoustic finger style intro reminiscent of "Roundabout" and "And you and I", but, perhaps most strikingly, Nancy's guitar fills seem like they're pulled right from Howe's guitar work in "Yours is No Disgrace". Listen in both songs for the fast, airy pull-off riffs executed high up on the fretboard.

So, I thought I'd look more into it. Here's Nancy from Heart discussing "Crazy on You."

Nancy: "At the time we were listening to stuff like Yes, where you had Steve Howe doing some mellow acoustic intros to things. And there were lots of different parts to songs – it wasn't just riff-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus-out, or whatever. We were trying to be more creative and kind of meaningful and poetic with these songs. We weren't afraid to be a little bit more "lofty" with all of it, to a certain degree."

And so, nearly two decades later, a controversy is put to rest.

Thank God for the Internet and its power to immortalize petty quibbles between prog rock nerds.
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Re: Did Heart

Postby Yessong » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:14 pm

Finally - vindication on the influence!
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