Phil Collins - get it off your chest!

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topographic_drama1980
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Phil Collins - get it off your chest!

Post: # 72363Post topographic_drama1980
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:01 am

Ok, now. I've seen many, many posts on here about Phil Collind and his bashing of bands most of us love, such as Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd, and even early Genesis, to a certain extent, now I think this would be a good opportunity for all of us to share our feelings, whether good or bad, about this man.

Ok, starting with my feelings on the guy, he's one of the most talented drummers in the world and he's obviouslt a great singer. The absolute best recordings he's ever been on were of the "classic" Genesis period ('71-'77) and even also on the 'Abacab' album, besides having the drum machines on the album. With his album "Face Value" he proved to the world that he was a great songwriter, especially on "In The Air Tonight," his best song ever, period. It's rather strange to me that most of his solo recordings sounded so damn much like Genesis during the 80's and 90's that you could hardly tell the difference between the two. No Jacket Required was truly his last great album, meaning before he basically kept writing the same old stuff over and over again, featuring awesome songs like "Don't Lose My Number," "Inside Out," and "Take Me Home." Hell, even half the songs on that album get constant radio airplay, mostly on 80's stations and AC stations. He's also played and produced a lot of artists' works, most notably Eric Clapton and Frida (from ABBA) where he not only produced, but also played the drums and occasionally sang harmony vocals. I think he's a very talented drummer and that voice of his has never lost any spark whatsoever.

Now, my opinions regarding him bashing Prog-Rock, Yes, and even some of the classic Genesis stuff that made him what he is today, personally I think he should have kept his mouth shut and called it a "double insult" to be compared to something he can't stand. I still do not understand why he stand Yes or even having Genesis being compared to a lot of more popular Prog acts when Genesis WAS a prog-rock band, at least from 1970-1981. Why would he be ashamed of something like "Nursery Cryme" or even "Selling England By The Pound?" That lot of albums were very important to the evolution of that band. If it wasn't for classic Genesis, he definitely, at least IMO, would not have had the successful solo career he has today. Is he trying to be cool by trying to take sides with all the critics who bashed Prog when it was king? I think his attitude about that sucks. If he didn't like that genre of music or wasn't proud of some of the music he helped to helm then he shouldn't have done it in the first place. (I've often wondered what it would've been like if Peter Gabriel had Phil's role for so long, being drummer, which he was for a brief while before Ant Phillips came along and the rest of the band felt he should sing, and also the singer. What would the music have sounded like? History could have been changed back then.) But anyway, it would have been best of Phil kept his opinions of prog to himself and just at least said something along the lines of "Well, it was long ago, but it was a good ride," or something like that. I wouldn't be a bit suprised if he lost a lot of fans because of those comments, like Stoutman, and I know he's defintely ready with his comments, which are definitely welcome.

All those albums he helped create and he can't look bacj at them with a grin on his face?! Hell, his best ever drumming was on NC, FXTRT, and SEBTP, for God's sake!!! I just don't get it. I still dig a lot of his solo stuff, but I just don't like his attitude about his past.

And also, about faxing his second wife a divorce, couldn't he have at least did what he did with his first wife and move near where she lives and try to work things out? Seems very unusual to me. Just my opinion.

So, everyone else, just get it off your chest right now!

Stoutman, I do believe you're on deck for this one. :jestera:
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Post: # 72364Post topographic_drama1980
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:04 am

Sorry about some of my spelling. I'm just a tad bit drunk right now. :icon_drin
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Post: # 72365Post topographic_drama1980
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:07 am

Above, I meant NOT to call it a "double insult" to be compared with something he can't stand. Man, I wish there was an "edit" button on this site.
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Post: # 72608Post Greenglade's Frog
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:54 am

I saw him on the Genesis Songbook DVD. He seemed defensive about the music changing. He asked the detractors if they ever outgrew a band or type of music and moved on. Which is true-- they couldn't play the same exact stuff forever.

On the VHI Behind The Music, he made a joke about old Genesis fans nightly sticking his effigy with pins.

He just did what he wanted. It was a rather natural evolutionary process for him and for what he wanted to do.

I don't like all the stuff that started with the Duke Era, but some of it is pretty good, and I appreciate it a little more now that it is considered "classic".

He might have gotten sick of the stuff he played in the past, but I don't think he hated it while doing it; otherwise, how else could he have given such great performances the those great tunes during the 70's(and 80's, as I saw demonstrated at two concerts).
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Post: # 72622Post Terry Shea
Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:33 pm

Phil Collins has done very well for himself because he's been smart enough to realize a few secrets of success in the business. The #1 secret is it's better to do your own thing instead of being a team player and the #2 secret is the masses love mediocrity.

Phil Collins is certainly not a great singer or songwriter by any stretch of the imagination. The same can be said of his drumming if you listen only to his solo work. He did some great drumming in his early Genesis years but his solo work (along with his later work with Genesis and other projects he worked on) has rather watered down drum patterns compared to his earlier work. You just don't see or hear the intricacies or the syncopation on his later recordings that were so prevalent earlier on in his career. What he did do was to make the drum sound on these recordings a lot simpler and a lot louder! He wrote very simple songs for his solo act (and also did some easy covers), used very simple drum patterns (not to mention drum machines), is not a great vocalist, made Genesis take a back seat to his solo work and appealed to the masses who are overwhelmed by such mediocrity. Banks and Rutherford saw the huge success Phil's solo act was receiving and decided to go along for the ride. Basically they sold themselves out but I'm not sure you can really blame them. They gave the masses what they wanted. The music suffered for the almighty dollar.
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Post: # 72626Post Greenglade's Frog
Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:53 pm

"They gave the masses what they wanted. The music suffered for the almighty dollar."

On thing to consider: I've heard them say on Behind the Music, Genesis Story (?) and Songbook that they suddenly had girls in the audience(eg, after "Follow You, Follow me") instead of "spotty" young men. Might have been another extrinsic motivation. :p
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Post: # 72629Post Haze
Mon Jul 05, 2004 4:44 am

I have to assume that Terry's just trying to take the Micky out of us! He's made so many basic errors around and about Phil Collins career and knowledge that this has to be a joke! I'm not sure how to answer this actually,,, but I'll give it a shot:
Terry Shea wrote:Phil Collins has done very well for himself because he's been smart enough to realize a few secrets of success in the business. The #1 secret is it's better to do your own thing instead of being a team player and the #2 secret is the masses love mediocrity.

Well, for starters: It's not a BAD thing to be smart! If you realize that your important progressive career is somewhat declining you're allowed to use any means necessary to remain in light! And if it works - well fine, 'cause then you could impose the audience with greater stuff further on! You and me, mate, would probably do the same! BTW, Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett did their own thing before Phil thought of it and NO]Phil Collins is certainly not a great singer or songwriter by any stretch of the imagination. The same can be said of his drumming if you listen only to his solo work (along with his later work with Genesis and other projects he worked on) has rather watered down drum patterns compared to his earlier work. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you mean by his "earlier work" but his drumming with Brand X as well as Genesis during the mid seventies were all good examples of his best performances. After that he turned more towards song-writing and in which he excelled during the eighties and onwards. And as far as his singing is concerned: Songs like the early "More Fool Me" and the later "In the Air Tonight" as well as many others definitly showed talent and tonal qualities! I mean, an icon like Bob Dylan sounds like a broken down tractor in comparison!
Terry Shea wrote: You just don't see or hear the intricacies or the syncopation on his later recordings that were so prevalent earlier on in his career.

I think I kinda answered this one above. But honestly]What he did do was to make the drum sound on these recordings a lot simpler and a lot louder! He wrote very simple songs for his solo act (and also did some easy covers), used very simple drum patterns (not to mention drum machines), is not a great vocalist, made Genesis take a back seat to his solo work and appealed to the masses who are overwhelmed by such mediocrity. Banks and Rutherford saw the huge success Phil's solo act was receiving and decided to go along for the ride. Basically they sold themselves out but I'm not sure you can really blame them. They gave the masses what they wanted.[/QUOTE]
That Banks and Rutherford (and Collins) would "go along for the ride" and "...they sold themselves..."!!! Hey! Please don't take a piss at great musicians just because you're having a bad day! Tony Banks and Michael Rutherford (not to mention Collins, as it were!) have so much skill and integrity by themselves that this is just ridiculous! If nothing else, the children may fare ill of this narrow-minded attitude...

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Post: # 72632Post Terry Shea
Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:36 pm

Okay let's see if I can appease you here. Genesis music form the '80s on and also Phil Collins solo work is much, much, much better musically than anything they did in the '70s. In fact Phil Collins solo work and '80s Genesis is by far the best music ever recorded. Phil Collins has the voice of an angel and his monotonous, huge drum sound is so much preferable to the varied patterns he played during the '70s. Phil is quite an ambassador of good will too. He is quite the gentleman and would never speak badly about other bands or solo acts.
Is that what you want to hear? I don't even understand your argument. You seem to simply be splitting hairs over what I stated. BTW, it is the masses that love medicority or they wouldn't buy all the musically inferior crap they buy. Now the record companies may well promote these tasteless bands over the more musically influenced artists, but ultimately what you and I and everyone else listens to is our own choice. You won't find any Brittney, Michael Jackson or rap music in my collection, and I'm quite certain the same can be said of yours. Now if we weren't free to make that choice we wouldn't have Yes, Genesis or other prog bands in our collection would we? These bands would never have existed if the record companies had that kind of control. These bands have done fairly well for themselves, but their sales don't reach nearly the levels of the more poular but musically inferior artists. Genesis made that switch. The record company may have had some influence over the material, but if Genesis was upset about it they could have sought a new record label. I'm sure lots of labels would have liked to sign them based on their sales background. The point is, no one has to buy something just because it's being promoted by the record companies. That's why I said the masses love mediocrity because they'll buy whatever the record companies tell them is hot. So actually I guess we're both right.
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Post: # 72640Post Stoutman
Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:29 pm

Look, I dont like the man. That much is apparent, but it all has to do with his attitude ,which I find arrogant. I really could care less if he wants to churn out Whitney Houston lite music, more power to him. He certainly has more money myself and anyone else posting on this board will ever see. I wish I had his cash. It`s all very well and good playing the starving artist, but,hey, the man had to make a living. At the time he inauguarated his solo career, prog music was dead in the water and he sure as hell wasnt going to mke any money playing 20 minute suites. So, you have to give him credit for intelligence, because pop music is the most acessible form of music out there. Now, we can argue about the banalities of how pop music doesnt compare to prog, but that`s like chossing apples and oranges.Obvioulsy agreat deal of people liked his material,, so who can say they are wrong?
No, I dont blame him for his solo material, although I do find him very whiny and irritating, not to mention hypocritcal in the way he carried on in songs about his first divorce, yet he grossly mishandled his second divorce. That there destroys whatever credibility he has,making him appear to be a snake oil salesman, which he is for Toyota and Michael Eisner. You may say, `Stout, that`s none of your business',but it is if he moans and wails abouthis marital problems in his music ,it certainly is. How did listeners who once identified with his paiin and anguish feel when he pulled that fax manuever in his second divorce
It`s just that his revisionist attiude regarding past Genesis and other prog bands at the time is insulting and it smacks of a hypocritical moron who is just fair-weathered. And his sudden love of punk and new/wave is laughable, since he considered himslef a musician and that the punks lacked talent. And he would go to great distances to always excalim how the 80`s Genesis were so different from the 70`s Genesis`. we are writing songs musch better now, we are not as pretentious'. These comments come from aman who has no pride in the past that made him and they are insulting to Genesis fans themselves.
Nowadays, he is just going through the motions. The material he chooses(I cant stop loving you ) is truly banal shit. It`s not even good pop. It`s disposeable sludge , fitting for a sewer. He has stopped trying to make even halfway decent recordings,doing his best to cash in when he already has it coming out of his ears and ass and mouth(no, Im not talking shit, but he has that coming out of those openings too)

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Post: # 72651Post wild_westie
Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:12 pm

Terry Shea wrote:Phil Collins has done very well for himself because he's been smart enough to realize a few secrets of success in the business. The #1 secret is it's better to do your own thing instead of being a team player and the #2 secret is the masses love mediocrity.

Phil Collins is certainly not a great singer or songwriter by any stretch of the imagination. The same can be said of his drumming if you listen only to his solo work. He did some great drumming in his early Genesis years but his solo work (along with his later work with Genesis and other projects he worked on) has rather watered down drum patterns compared to his earlier work. You just don't see or hear the intricacies or the syncopation on his later recordings that were so prevalent earlier on in his career. What he did do was to make the drum sound on these recordings a lot simpler and a lot louder! He wrote very simple songs for his solo act (and also did some easy covers), used very simple drum patterns (not to mention drum machines), is not a great vocalist, made Genesis take a back seat to his solo work and appealed to the masses who are overwhelmed by such mediocrity. Banks and Rutherford saw the huge success Phil's solo act was receiving and decided to go along for the ride. Basically they sold themselves out but I'm not sure you can really blame them. They gave the masses what they wanted. The music suffered for the almighty dollar.

Hear, hear. I second that! Great observation there!
Now Phil, would you please get off my chest! You're crushing my breasts!

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Post: # 72685Post fragilesi
Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:49 pm

I think that the guy is a great talent and I wish that I had just a small fraction of the talent that he possesses. I just don't think he matches it with any integrity. Fair play, he's made millions and become world famous by dumming everything down but then so has Britney . . .

By the time he made that bloody "jacket" album he'd sold his soul for the money. Fair play to him for what he's achieved but in terms of his opinions on more serious musicians I think that he's become an irrelevance.

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Post: # 72840Post topographic_drama1980
Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:16 am

wild_westie wrote:Hear, hear. I second that! Great observation there!
Now Phil, would you please get off my chest! You're crushing my breasts!
:jestera: How did I know you were gonna do that?!
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Post: # 72947Post yeskat
Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:23 am

Well, whatever one chooses to do for their career is their own choice and their own business; more power to them. Whether it means taking a step backwards, it's up to them.

However, IMO there is never an excuse for back-stabbing your previous band or other fellow artists. Especially when the success of your career rides on that band you are bad-mouthing. This sounds a lot like a previous YES member we all know! I don't understand that kind of attitude at all.

As for Phil's personal life, such as the faxed divorce, etc. To me this is all hearsay or gossip. It may or may not be true, or could be exagerated. We really don't know. I just don't pay much attention to that sort of thing.

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Post: # 72953Post topographic_drama1980
Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:18 am

I take it you're talking about the former member of Yes who also happened to be in the same band as Phil, Bill Bruford. Is that right? Or maybe Peter?
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Post: # 72954Post topographic_drama1980
Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:30 am

All in all, he basically should have kept his feelings regarding the 70's to himself. It's not really fair to the fans that they hear something like that coming from a man who was such an important member of the band, even way back when. If he's trying to cover up being a part of that whole scene, I think it's highly impossible. Everyone, well, mostly everyone, knows that Genesis was a progressive rock band in the 70's, you just can't change that, period. I just don't see why he can't be proud of the music he helped to create or even of the album that was out before he was in the band. It was different from what a lot of other bands were doing at the time. I still don't get it. I still listen to his music, but his attitude about his past stinks. Whatever goes on with his personal life, besides with the stuff on Face Value and HIMBG, is really none of my business. He will do what he pleases, even if it's a stupid mistake. We all make them a few times in our lives. He's only human. We're only human. Anyways, that's about it from me. I'll shut up now. :jestera:
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Post: # 72977Post wild_westie
Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:47 pm

topographic_drama1980 wrote: :jestera: How did I know you were gonna do that?!

I knew that you knew that I knew you knew I was going to post that. ]

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Post: # 73005Post yeskat
Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:41 am

topographic_drama1980 wrote:I take it you're talking about the former member of Yes who also happened to be in the same band as Phil, Bill Bruford. Is that right? Or maybe Peter?
I was referring to our friend, Bill. It's hard for him to say something nice about the band, or Chris or Jon. He's a billiant drummer (must be something about drummers!), but IMO he's an arrogant, snotty nosed, uppity...
well, you know!

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Check this out!!!

Post: # 80322Post topographic_drama1980
Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:00 am

A little subject I brought forth on the Genesis website's message board:

http://http://hit.demonhosting.co.uk/cg ... 035;start=
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Post: # 80323Post topographic_drama1980
Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:02 am

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Post: # 80354Post topographic_drama1980
Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:06 am

There is some info about why Phil stuck his foot in his mouth about the prog past. For those that know about him slamming bands like Yes, ELP, etc, in one of the posts he took a stab at the Moody Blues as well "...fluffy pie-in-the-sky crap."

He says prog isn't his cup of tea, so why was he even involved in it in the first place?!!!
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Well Here it goes...

Post: # 80634Post Coverall
Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:52 pm

You, brought a subject I was arguing, on the 25th, about 4 am.
We ahd a little Christmas Party, and we were listening to some mixes a friend of mine, does, when suddenly there it was Abacab, personally I like this song, but as I always tell my friends, Genesis DIED after "And Then there Were Three".
The Prog Rock was virtually Dying, in the 80´s, all of the Prog bands that are here today is because, they adapted, Yes, changed the sound completly, in the 80´s (90125, Big Generator), King Crimson did too (Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair), they changed an adapted to the time beaing, but, here is the but, Phill Collins kept doing the same thing, on his own and with Genesis, dragging them in to the game of pop, "if you are some one today, we don´t assure you you´ll be some one tomorrow", and Genesis, kept throwing dirt over themselves during the years to the last try "We can´t Dance" (awful album I may say, I trully hate it), and what happened, the rat leaves the ship when it´s sinking, Collins left to get on his solo career, and Genesis, Finally got back to try a little prog, with a new vocalist, but what happened? the public they created did not like it (I for one enjoyed "Calling all Stations").
The critics destroyed them, their audience left them, and what was left? I for one was there to see a Phoenix rise from the ashes, but they didn´t sell well, and they kept ignoring the prog fans, they had back in the so called Genesis Dark Ages (by many of the 80´s fans).
In my opinion, they should have dropped, the comercial pop at some point, and drag their new fans into the prog scene as the other great did.

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Post: # 80674Post topographic_drama1980
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:28 am

Well, at least I'm not the only one who likes Calling All Stations. I love the title track and the minor hit "Congo." It was actually a minor hit here in the U.S. and it got some decent airplay, but people just weren't buying. Anthony Phillips leaving was one thing, Peter Gabriel's was another, Steve Hackett's was another, but Phil's leaving was truly the last straw. People just didn't give the band a chance.

It's because of all the negative things people are saying about the band that the band won't reunite at all. Just check out the Genesis forum on their website.
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Calling All Stations is a good album...

Post: # 80773Post Coverall
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:56 pm

Uff, and I tought my brother and I were the only ones who liked that album, but now I can see, we are not alone out there thank you for steping forward.

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Post: # 80801Post topographic_drama1980
Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:27 am

Aye aye, Captain Coverall! :jestera:

Send me to the Congo, I'm free to leave....
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Post: # 80814Post happytheman
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:10 pm

Coverall wrote:Genesis DIED after "And Then there Were Three".
The Prog Rock was virtually Dying, in the 80´s, all of the Prog bands that are here today is because, they adapted, Yes, changed the sound completly, in the 80´s (90125, Big Generator), King Crimson did too (Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair), they changed an adapted to the time beaing, but, here is the but, Phill Collins kept doing the same thing, on his own and with Genesis, dragging them in to the game of pop, "if you are some one today, we don´t assure you you´ll be some one tomorrow", and Genesis, kept throwing dirt over themselves during the years to the last try "We can´t Dance" (awful album I may say, I trully hate it), and what happened, the rat leaves the ship when it´s sinking, Collins left to get on his solo career, and Genesis, Finally got back to try a little prog, with a new vocalist, but what happened? the public they created did not like it (I for one enjoyed "Calling all Stations").
The critics destroyed them, their audience left them, and what was left? I for one was there to see a Phoenix rise from the ashes, but they didn´t sell well, and they kept ignoring the prog fans, they had back in the so called Genesis Dark Ages (by many of the 80´s fans).
In my opinion, they should have dropped, the comercial pop at some point, and drag their new fans into the prog scene as the other great did.
Interesting observation, consider this. Hackett left to do solo work during the "Lamb Lies Down" sessions. Phil left to do "session" work with Brand X during the The Trick of the Tail sessions. Tony left to do solo work during the "Wind and Wurthering" sessions. Phil again left to do "solo" work during the "And then there were three" sessions (or shortly after that tour). And even Micheal Rutherford left to do "solo" work during the same period. And this was years before they "hit the charts with a bullet". So to say Phil jumped ship as it was sinking is a bit off. Genesis had simply played itself out in the progessive world and then they did the same in the "pop" world. I personally never faulted them for taking the path they took. But Tony said it best in an interview during the "money years". "Sure I enjoy playing Firth of Fifth more than Invisible Touch, but let's get real. Selling England by the Pound sold maybe 500,000 copies whereas Invisible Touch sold multiples of millions. Our audience wants to hear it, so we play it". Makes sense to me.

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They sold Millions but where are those millions now?

Post: # 80849Post Coverall
Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:36 pm

But I´m pretty sure at least 50 to 60% of that audience no longer listen to those Genesis albums and the other 40 to 50% still listen to them but they got curius, and went on and got the prog years records.

Maybe the comercial albums sold millions, but you should be thinking, there are people that buys an album just for one or two, maybe three songs, those songs are not played anymore on the radio, and they are forgoten for most of the listeners that are driven by what they listen on comercial radio and by what they see on equally comercial TV, and they don´t bother to look behind that and discover trully great music.

So let me ask you all something, people that likes a band, likes it even if they produce shitty albums, and they not forget why they listen to them so, the question is, where are those millions they sold I´m sure that even when I don´t like the 80´s Collins Genesis those records are still in my record case (even We Can´t Dance), and I went on and got Calling all Stations when it came out, and if they got original material out, you be sure that I will buy it.
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Coverall
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If they like it...

Post: # 80850Post Coverall
Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:39 pm

I forgot, I play music because I like to play music, if people like´s it so be it if not they can go on and listen to Spears or Aguilera, any thing that suits them, but I will reamin true to my origynal audience...
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Post: # 80862Post Roan's Lady
Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:05 pm

Genesis after "And Then There Were Three" was not "my" Genesis. After hearing some of their leanings toward pop after this, I said "no thanks" and stopped buying their albums. Maybe I missed some gems by not buying any more - who knows? Actually, some of the songs I did hear I thought were pretty good - for pop songs - but not pretty good for Genesis.
It's such a personal thing! You get thoughts about a band - their sound is identifiable in a way that you like, and when you hear the band's musical direction change, sometimes you jump ship. Of course, with many people, this happened with 90125 (and some would argue Tormato or Drama) as well. I'm likely in the minority here, but I'm sorry - Yes didn't do it for me with 90125 - in fact, when I first heard it, I was nearly in tears. The cover alone was a shock. But again, a lot of the songs on this album are good! Just not good from Yes. Just my humble opinion.
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Post: # 80904Post IWas Sam
Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:24 pm

I believe that Phil Collins takes the blame for what went "wrong" with Genesis because he has such a big mouth. I think Banks and Rutherford are equally at fault. The band was really OK after Gabriel left, but went slowly adrift after Hackett departed. Collins was really perfectly suited to playing the drums and singing backing vocals for a terrific band. The band spiraled horribly downward when he moved increasingly out front.

I also thought that Calling All Stations was a move in the right direction, but by then I think the fan base was confused.

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Coverall
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Post: # 80926Post Coverall
Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:03 pm

Phill Collins as a Lead Singer is a Really great drummer... ?????
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