Michael Moore

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wild_westie
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Michael Moore

Post: # 72342Post wild_westie
Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:35 am

Well the much publicized documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" is now in theatres - about 800+. So far, Michaels Moore's film has grossed $24,078,959 as of June 27th. Have you seen the film? Or have you witnessed all the press surrounding this film? Have you seen any interviews with Michael Moore? I'd like to know what you think of Michael Moore - this can include his films in the past - "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine". I'm really curious about what my Yes Friends think about this. Thanks in advance!

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Michael Moore

Post: # 72368Post liftmeup
Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:02 pm

As an Australian all I know of Michael Moore is the TV show "The Awful Truth".
Of course I have heard of his documentaries but have not seen them.
Michael Moore comes across as a decent man who sees wrongs being done and uses the tools he has to try and right those wrongs.Or at least bring them to the attention of the general public.
His show with the ficus running for office was both hilarious and frightening in its truth. :)
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The Awful Truth about Michael Moore

Post: # 72438Post stevehoweistheMAN
Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:31 pm

I had to do a term paper on this man. Would you like some research about his non research. In his "attempt to reveal the truth" as liftmeup says, he's warped many things in his films through the power of digital editing. let me know if you want to hear some of the outrageous bullshit of his!
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Post: # 72448Post psychopomp95
Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:25 pm

Moore can distort and bend things to be shown in the light he wants them too, just as EVERY media outlet can (and usually does). He's no angel, and I do think a lot of people (read: liberals) give him a 'free pass' in that regard simply because he happens to be liberal.
However, I've never seen an actual, outright LIE (or even black and white error) on his part... more than I could say for some quotes I've seen from someone like Sean Hannity! Heck, all I've ever seen from Hannity are mistakes! :rolleyes: Could be because I don't listen to his show, though (I don't think I even could up here in Canada), but I've read about some of his many, many flubs. And just as much as with Moore and his 'folks', conservatives never take him to task on it. People only seem to want to hear what they already believe, so Moore and Hannity alike mostly end up preaching to the choir!

The only reason Michael Moore has so much publicity is because the media that publicizes him has an agenda to push. The same as ALWAYS. That agenda is neither a 'liberal' or a 'conservative' one in particular.

And to finish, I have MUCH, much more respect for Moore than I do for Hannity... although again, I haven't seen a huge amount about the latter, but what I've read of his words comes across as rather hateful and reactionary to me... quotes can be taken out of context, but not the stuff I've read!

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Post: # 72485Post Chris2210
Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:28 pm

I always think it's a real irony of the ethos of capitalism that it's Moore's popularity and the fact that that makes people who back the media richer that guarantees his outlet. That 'Stupid White Men' was initially stifled by its publishers and went on to be a bestseller and massive money maker for Rupert Murdoch means a perpetually ambivalent relationship between Moore and the media moghuls. The lure of those big $s means someone somewhere isn't going to be able to resist those distribution percentages. Makes me laugh anyway and God knows our society NEEDS its internal critics.

Did you know that 'The Awful Truth' was originally produced by British television's Channel 4? It's one tiny spark of relief that in the current bleak climate for western democracy Moore no longer needs to go out of the US to be able to make his points.

People would do well to remember that the things they regard as annoying parasites are often at work gnawing on the filth that would destroy the host.
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The Fat Man Sings

Post: # 72487Post N2yes
Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:47 pm

While I admire Moore's unique take on several issues, some more interesting than others, I do find him to be somewhat of an opportunist. I think he sees himself as representing the silent majority which is far from the truth. His comments regarding the Iraqi insurgents was most nauseating taking into account that it is American and British servicemen ( that includes women and no, I refuse to say "servicepeople" ) who are sacrificing their lives. To suggest is one thing, to pretend omniscience in an arena that he has no more knowledge than the common man ( or woman ), is arrogance driven by a lofty self-importance which no one is entitled. He is simply not an authority on the subject though he may have misled some into thinking he is. At times, I find him to be no more than a rabble-rouser standing on the shoulders of the misinformed.

However, he is not dumb and there is a need for his low-keyed assaults on established institutions to offset the often fanatical misperceptions of the far right. Still, he is not even close to the middle where he could likely find more ears to bend in the tailwinds of his often windy diatribes.

BTW, I have BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE and I have enjoyed it on numerous occasions, especially the Charlton Heston interview.
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Heston Interview

Post: # 72491Post stevehoweistheMAN
Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:59 pm

N2: Did you notice that in the Heston interview in BFC, the colour of Hestons tie magically changes 6 times?? How do you suppose that mighta happened?
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Post: # 72492Post stevehoweistheMAN
Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:00 pm

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Post: # 72536Post wild_westie
Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:01 am

stevehoweistheMAN wrote:I had to do a term paper on this man. Would you like some research about his non research. In his "attempt to reveal the truth" as liftmeup says, he's warped many things in his films through the power of digital editing. let me know if you want to hear some of the outrageous bullshit of his!

Bring on your research! Post it here if you can. Moore sure is good at rearranging timelines to fit his target of the moment. I haven't seen "Bowling" - which I will watch this weekend. I've seen "Roger and Me" - very good example of his timeline inaccuracies. I'll have to travel to a larger city to see
"F/911". And yes, you're so correct in that he doesn't do his research. Boy, I just saw the tail end of an interview with Moore. I think it was on CNBC. The poor interviewer couldn't get one word in. Moorish just kept talking and talking until the interviewer had to cut him off. :mad:

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Post: # 72560Post stevehoweistheMAN
Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:05 pm

of course, i couldn't present a biased protrait of the man in my paper. i had to show both sides, but considering i didn't know who he was when i wrote it, it wasn't a problem. two websites to check out are

http://www.michaelmoore.com
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

for both views....i'll try to find my paper and load some stuff up on here...
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Oh Boy...

Post: # 72564Post stevehoweistheMAN
Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:40 pm

psychopomp wrote:Moore can distort and bend things to be shown in the light he wants them too, just as EVERY media outlet can (and usually does).
Right. In my opinion, when you win an Oscar, the crowning acheivment and symbol of status in Hollywood, for a DOCUMENTARY no less, your facts should be a little above the 7 O'Clock news standards.
psychopomp wrote: However, I've never seen an actual, outright LIE (or even black and white error) on his part... more than I could say for some quotes I've seen from someone like Sean Hannity! Heck, all I've ever seen from Hannity are mistakes! Could be because I don't listen to his show, though (I don't think I even could up here in Canada), but I've read about some of his many, many flubs. And just as much as with Moore and his 'folks', conservatives never take him to task on it. People only seem to want to hear what they already believe, so Moore and Hannity alike mostly end up preaching to the choir!

And to finish, I have MUCH, much more respect for Moore than I do for Hannity... although again, I haven't seen a huge amount about the latter, but what I've read of his words comes across as rather hateful and reactionary to me... quotes can be taken out of context, but not the stuff I've read!
Now this is very ignorant so I'll take it one at a time Trev.

1) "However, I've never seen an actual, outright LIE (or even black and white error) on his part."

You should do more research!!! There is so much black and white evidence against what he's put to film it's incalculable.

2) "more than I could say for some quotes I've seen from someone like Sean Hannity! Heck, all I've ever seen from Hannity are mistakes! Could be because I don't listen to his show, though (I don't think I even could up here in Canada), but I've read about some of his many, many flubs."

Read that. Now read it again. See how dumb that sounds! You're criticsizing (spelling) someone having never listened to his #1 outlet of opinion. I agree that Hannity is biased towards things on the right. For instance, on his show, when discussing John Kerry he says things like, "John Kerry has voted to cancel every weapons system we now use." To quote the Smiths: well, this is true, and yet it's false. He HAS voted against them, but also, as Alan Colmes will point out, he has voted FOR them as well! So each are delivering part truths, but only the beneficial parts. They are preaching to the choir, maybe, but you should really KNOW what Hannity has to say befor you make such an accusations. Also, most of the things Hannity is accused of saying wrong are done on live tv/radio. I'm not trying to lessen the accuracy of what he might have said, but anyone, it seems to me, conservative or liberal, could mess something up on live tv or radio. emotion is a bad thing when you're live, because things come out you later regret, as everyone very well knows. Moore has countless hours in an editing room to cover those mistakes. But, as is the "norm", the conservative is the one who is "to blame."

3) "And to finish, I have MUCH, much more respect for Moore than I do for Hannity... although again, I haven't seen a huge amount about the latter, but what I've read of his words comes across as rather hateful and reactionary to me... quotes can be taken out of context, but not the stuff I've read!"

Again, do your research. Whay your doing is forming an opinion of Moore, haveing not seen his "outright lies" (which, as a person making political opinions as you are, should know you fucking have to research, man, and not one side of the spectrum. You need to know both parties arguments), but just agreeing with what he says. Then you're coming up with an opinion of Hannitty, from quotes, having not listened to his show, but just from internet. I could be wrong (tell me if I am) but I suspect you got those quotes from someone who is not a "Hannity fan". And as you can see from M. Moore, it's easy to twist things, from either side.

And lastly,

4) "And just as much as with Moore and his 'folks', conservatives never take him to task on it."

This is the pip. I can give you many places where you can find conservatives waiting to take him up on it!

a.) Larry Elder, a libraterian, has an item on the front page of his website (it's acutally quite funny) that's counting the months, days, hours, minutes, seconds of how long it's been since Larry Elder challenged Michael Moore to come on his radio show. http://www.larryelder.com. (look for "Michael Moore, where are you?")

b.) your favorite friend, Shawn Hannity (THAT'S how you spell the name), has made public challenges as well, live. Look for quotes.

c.) Bill O Reilly, and independant has written letters and made phone calls to Michael Moore's offices to ask him to be on his show, and did so once live on radio as well, and all the times, he has declined, or hasn't returned the message.

d. and e.) The ladies, Ann Coulter and Laura Inraham, have both done the same.

f.) There are many websites, such as bowlingfortruth.com and revoketheoscar.com that point out his innacuracies (revoketheoscar is prolly a more detailed site) of his film making and books, and challenge him.

So don't say the conservatives don't take him to task, Trevor, that simply isn't true. You jjust didn't think so because they didn't report it on World News Tonight.
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Post: # 72604Post psychopomp95
Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:56 pm

No, I said I don't ever hear about many conservatives taking HANNITY to task, much as liberals don't do so with Moore. And admittedly, I've never listened to his show (I don't think I ever would, in all honesty, even if I could). If I can find the page that had his 'innacurate quotes', I'll post them here... in fact I'm going to look right now! But you can bet I've seen a whole lot of examples of conservatives taking Moore to task. ;) I'm not living under a rock!
Sure, it's easier to screw up live, but a good journalist/broadcaster will have enough restraint to avoid making statements that have no merit whatsoever (ie. no basis in fact)!

Some particular examples of Moore telling outright lies would be appreciated though! I won't argue (well, not too much ;) ) with hard evidence! As I said, I have no doubt the guy can manipulate just as much as anyone, and I've seen examples of it too... one was about the footage of Charlton Heston and the various NRA rallies that were talked about in 'Bowling For Columbine' - apparently the rallies were NOT held on the dates Moore implies (but never actually says) they were - quite tricky. I don't remember the exact details but it was something like that... Yet again, an agenda. ;) In this case, gun control, which is a whole other can of worms to open.
I've just been looking at bowlingfortruth.com - a fair amount of that stuff, mainly the hypocrisy behind Moore's support of Wesley Clark, I knew about months ago, and in all honesty, I'm not in big favour of a gun registry either, even though it was the main thrust of 'Bowling...' (as it says on one of the pages on bowlingfortruth, it has failed miserably here in Canada, so why the need for one?). I tried revoketheoscar.com but it didn't load!

Oh, and I just found the page with Hannity's incorrect quotes!
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=91585
Now obviously this was done by a liberal site (again, one agenda vs. another), but I still found it quite humourous... :D I was going to single out one particular 'part' of the article as being the real gold, but I guess I'll just laugh when he says "I never questioned anyone's patriotism"!

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Post: # 72605Post psychopomp95
Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:59 pm

Damn, I gotta cut down on using those faces...!

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Post: # 72606Post psychopomp95
Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:03 pm

Oh, and I'll also absolutely agree that the Canada Michael Moore portrays in the movie is a JOKE. No country on this earth is that idyllic, methinks...!

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Post: # 72614Post psychopomp95
Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:02 am

Oddly enough, after just going there earlier TODAY, www.bowlingfortruth.com is down now... maybe I just think too much for my own good, but Moore does have a new movie out - perhaps some people felt it would be better if this page took a short 'break' of sorts? ;)

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Post: # 72646Post wild_westie
Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:36 pm

psychopomp wrote:Oh, and I'll also absolutely agree that the Canada Michael Moore portrays in the movie is a JOKE. No country on this earth is that idyllic, methinks...!

I'm enjoying the different views here. psychopomp,
are you referring to socialized medicine here? If this is the case, it's not working in Canada. Am I right? From what I read, a lot of the doctors have relocated to the USA and other countries. The patients in Canada also have to wait for treatment. If we think HMO's are a nightmare, just think what socialized medicine would be like. Does anyone think Moore might have a socialist's agenda? It appeared that way to me in "Roger and Me". I'm also supposing that if I were to watch his other movies and read his books, I would have to research every paragraph to make sure I'm getting the whole message. Whew, that would be exhausting. At least Oliver Stone is up front in his docudrama/films.

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My Father's take on Moore and our country

Post: # 72673Post wild_westie
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:41 am

Not The Happiest 4th For Me
The 4th of July came and left this year. Most years I have written editorials about past experiences during the 4th. Most of them happened in Taiwan and even though you would expect the best of the 4ths to happen in the U.S. most of them happened there with fellow expatiates. We celebrated America's birthday like you wouldn't believe at Taipei American School's football field.

This year's 4th has been a rather sad reflective one for me as I look back over the past couple of years. As I become more "elder" I continue to wonder where the real patriots are; the ones who aren't afraid to speak their minds and express their feelings about what's happening in this great country of ours.

Certain things keep flashing through my head like a month or so after 911 when Bush's press spokesman, Ari Fliecher, made a pointed remark to one of the press members who had just asked a probing question....Ari said, "You better watch what you are saying". His answer was if the press corps didn't ask the right questions they just might be drummed out of the White House press pack.
Long time White House reporter Helen Thomas was rudely put down and sent to the back of the room so to speak. She mentioned in one of her articles and there in the press room that Shrub was the worst president this country has ever had.

To me freedom of the press is a sacred issue. The right wing that controls the Republican Party has made it a priority to accuse anybody who doesn't agree with their agenda as anti-American. This is not the America that I grew up in and love.
On July 4th I saw "The Majestic" movie on TV, the movie starring Jim Carey. He wasn't the goofy guy in this one. The movie and Carey's acting made some good patriotic points. I wish everybody could have seen it. At least try to get a DVD or video and watch it. It's about what happened during the McCarthy era back in the 50's with Senator Joe McCarthy who was on his famous witch hunt trying to brand anybody he could as a communist sympathizer. The ending of the movie reminded me of James Stewart's "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington", another good movie about the little guy fighting big business and big lobbyists in Washington.

This year I had an even stronger feeling about our valiant soldiers being put in harms way by our jerk of a president.
Most of us after 911 were well behind Bush in attacking the bandits in Afghanistan. The attack on Iraq was uncalled for as you well know by now. No WMDs; no Osama and Saddam connection; and worst of all no concrete plan for an end game there.

I don't know about you or how you felt but a week long funeral tribute with 24/7 programs on Reagan was a little much especially when you realized that Bush won't let cameras near the flag covered caskets containing our boys coming home from Iraq. One of those caskets contained my only grandson Adam and yes I blame George W. Bush for his death. My heart goes out to all the parents of deceased soldiers coming home whose parents are beginning to ask, "Was this unprovoked attack on Iraq really necessary?"....... I urge you to go and see Fahrenheit 911. It's a good reality check. Those of you who can't see the forest for the trees just keep your head in the sand.........


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Post: # 72674Post psychopomp95
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:46 am

I would say: of COURSE Moore has a socialist agenda! He doesn't deny that he's left-wing to the core, and he also doesn't claim to be an 'objective' filmmaker by any means (who would he be fooling if he did claim so? LOL).

As for the healthcare here in Canada, unfortunately nothing is perfect. Waiting lists are MONTHS long here except for seriously threatening (ie. immediate) medical emergencies. Yet despite all this, the reaction to the suggestion of two-tiered healthcare has been met with hostility from most people! The same people who complain about the long waits we currently have. :P A two-tiered system, btw, wouldn't necessarily be the same as the US system as I understand it... healthcare COULD still be free without any plan, but if you want to jump to the front of the line, then you will have to fork out the dough! As much as I think it's a shame that something as basic as that should come down to money, it's really going to be the only way to make any progress, I think. Then again, how is moving people the the front of the line going to actually shorten the line as a whole? What is the answer, if a two-tiered system isn't the best way to go?
I should note my remark about Canada being portrayed WAY too ideally in the movie goes far beyond just healthcare, btw! I can say that since I'm a denizen of this nation. ;) But if it looks like I don't like it here, then not at all! These are problems that any society in our age will naturally have. It's still a good country in my book!

As for Oliver Stone - the man has SO many innacuracies that I've heard about (in his case not owing to agendas so much as just a need to condense for Hollywood) that I couldn't even start... again, I could try find some articles, but my dad has mentioned so much about his stuff... and he's somewhat of a fan, nonetheless!
There is NO one source that is reliable or smart enough to be the final word. The only way to stay truly well-informed is to absorb as much news (and opinion) as you can... stay enriched, I guess! :) That's why I'm posting here right now!

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How to read my father's message

Post: # 72675Post wild_westie
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:49 am

Just highlight it as you would if you were going to copy and paste it. It was written in white on a black background.

(Jodi, I made a couple of changes to your earlier post so it would be easier to read. :) - Amy)

This is part of his email to me:
Tuesday July 6, I'm taking the kids and a friend to Plano to see Michael Moore's new film Farenheit 911. Just the thing for your "lefty" dad huh?

We have polar opposite views when it comes to Moore. We don't discuss this subject. He's a rabid fan of Moore. Loves his books. Funny thing though,
I'm more of a right-wing independent and he's a left-wing independent. Twisted and crazy eh? :confused: Who knows. I wanted Ralph Nadar to run. I just hate that he's a spoiler in the races.


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Re: Canda

Post: # 72676Post wild_westie
Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:06 am

I thank you again for your informative posts psychopomp- would your name refer to pomp and circumtance? :)

I just love your country. I've been to Vancouver BC a few times. What beauty! I also adore my friends there.

I'll have to do some more research on the economic conditions in Canada. It's good that your country's workers support unions. From what I've read, it helps to keep the USA workers from coming in and not hiring locals to work for them. This applies to the entertainment industry - which is heavily unionized. Oh Canada! :)

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Post: # 72694Post tardistraveler
Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:11 pm

I haven't seen any of Moore's work, so I can't really comment on it per se.

However, I have found in this life that the real truth usually lies somewhere between the opposing viewpoints. It's important to hear all sides, and glean the truth from them.

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Post: # 72711Post Roan's Lady
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:13 pm

tardistraveler wrote:I haven't seen any of Moore's work, so I can't really comment on it per se.

However, I have found in this life that the real truth usually lies somewhere between the opposing viewpoints. It's important to hear all sides, and glean the truth from them.

Ditto to all of the above. The more viewpoints I read on Moore, the more I want to (and need to) see the movies, so I can "see for myself". Unfortunately, I have the feeling that I'll be caught somewhere in the middle - as "the truth" is likely something I'll never know.
I do know that I feel very uneasy about the state of the world, and I don't trust Bush as far as I can throw him. :(
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Post: # 72767Post psychopomp95
Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:51 am

wild_westie wrote:I thank you again for your informative posts psychopomp- would your name refer to pomp and circumtance? :)
I just love your country. I've been to Vancouver BC a few times. What beauty! I also adore my friends there.

I'll have to do some more research on the economic conditions in Canada. It's good that your country's workers support unions. From what I've read, it helps to keep the USA workers from coming in and not hiring locals to work for them. This applies to the entertainment industry - which is heavily unionized. Oh Canada! :)

My name actually refers to a Tea Party song! They're a Canadian band, my first real addiction in terms of music... :P I've had the online name for almost seven years now, so it's just kind of stuck with me!
As for unions, I don't know about 'keeping Americans out' - that's not really a problem. :rolleyes: Most Americans don't want to come here because the pay is lower! And if anything, we worry more on a professional/economic level about LOSING people to the U.S. for the same, or should I say opposite, reason!
Accurate about the entertainment industry though, mainly film... but the U.S. bigwigs, for the past few years, have been getting very fed up with the fact that all of the moviemaking is heading out of Hollywood, so there's been some pretty blatant laws and tariffs passed to discourage that! Dirty pool or just protecting one's interests? Hard to say...

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Post: # 72842Post Stoutman
Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:51 am

Im basically a working class guy,more like lower middle class. I have no college education,but Ill give it the old college try with this thread
I havent seen Farenheit 9/11; Ill probaly wait until it comes out on DVD.
Maybe it`s shallow of me, but I really dont want to see a movie about a world event that is happening as we speak. The whole of it is just downright depressing and yes, Im against the war, but that`s all I`ll say on the matter.
But i have seen Moore`s other documentaries, such as Roger and Me. You may not agree withthe man`s international politics, but you cannot disagree on his stance about corporate greed. He is right on the money.Coroprate Greed has been a major theme in my life so far; Ihave been downsized a few times and the way how these corporate heads try to rationalize about what they are doing to the working man is just obscene.`Oh, you are not losing your job at all, you are just moving into another psition.`Oh, you wont be losing much money, just nickels and dimes. These companies exploit you for how you work.I always believe in giving 110% in whatever job I did. Some years ago, I had the naive and stupid attiude that nothing would happen to me as long as I worked hard. So much for that.
I still give that 110% effort, but sometimes I wonder if it is really worth it. Im making more money for the CEO of the company and working class schmucks like me will receive a paltry sum, yet we are told to believe in our corporation. How can I when I know when push comes to shove, the company hits hard times, that Ill be around. Corporations treat you like a number ,not a name. Look, I dont like laziness or slacker like attiudes in my co-workers; but I can understand how people can get that way by just working for these crooked bastards.
Michael moore has apoint in going after these CEo`s like Roger Smith. Look what has happened with Ken Lay..That fuck should do hard time just like a street criminal who commits murder, because basically, the motherfucker annihilated people`s livelihoods and their savings. Coroprate crimes are not taken seriously in this nation of ours and why alot more out there do not get indiganat about this is beyond me. They are very serious indeed and I remeber how some people back in the 80`s had respect for snakes such as Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken.Why were some segments of the public admiring scum who would sell their own mothers down the line if possible ?The hell with Iraq; let`s try investing 87 million dolars in our own nation because we have our own friggin troubles to worry about. Then again, Bush has been in bed with some of these CEO`s so I cant expect him to do anything about corporate crimes.
Look, Ill goof about Phil Collins ,but for me, I really get passionate and upset about this matter because I live it. You`ll have a hard time convicing me Im wrong.
I f I get abit overheated, it`s just that I have very strong beliefs on the subject. Nothing raises my ire such as this., Chris

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Post: # 73049Post wild_westie
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:37 am

Here's my Dad's latest editorial. His name is Lan and the name of his editorial is called the "The Rational Lantoon". Cute name, eh? Amy, would you please help me with this post like you did before. I thank you in advance. :)

Maybe we should Have an Election

After seeing Fahrenheit 911 and watching the results of the 911 Senate
report I thought the Sunday talk shows would be filled with probing
questions. Not so; George Stephawhat'shis name (the turncoat midget) was
very careful not to ask probing questions regarding Bush II's Iraq attack
con job of the Americaqn people. Tim Russert (didn't you get tired of him
honking his book for weeks on end?) wasn't much better when interviewing
fellow (so called) journalists. Even on the closing funny paper section
of George Steph's program he featured 5 anti-Kerry lame personal attack
jokes.

Slowly a few political cartoonists have come out of their shell and
freight wigs especially Ann Telness who point the funny finger of fate at
both sides of the isle sometimes in dramatic fashion. The right wing
conservatives always are quick to label anybody that doesn't agree with
them as "Liberal Press Animals". Right wing political cartoonists are
quick to attack things that are personal such as Kerry's botox treatments.
Is that an issue? Maybe Ronnie Reagan's hair dye jobs should have been
an issue. It was done to make him look younger but no attacks there.

Dubya is such a cornacopia of funny jokes. The guy himself is probably
the biggest joke that has been in the White House High Chair. Obvious
jokes and take offs are seldom seen in the main stream media. The closest
program that comes to reality jokes is The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
As many of you know I was in the joke business for years and a good joke
writer doesn't let any political boundries hold him back from free
thinking about mirth creation.

I also have to take issue with a lot of so called political cartoonists on
the Left. Many of their creations are just not funny no matter what your
political persuation. It's a bit like the Howard Stern syndrome where
they push the envelope to create talk even though the material isn't
funny. Those that practice this form of cartoonery don't have to do
personal "body" attacks. The material is there everyday with just the
subjects actions.

I think one of the best questions to ask regarding the upcoming election
is this: "Would an attack by bin Laden help or hurt the Democrats?". The
same question could be asked about the Republicans.

How about Vice President appointee Dick Cheney publically saying to a well
known senator, "Fuck You". Pretty strong language for a Veep to use in
public where everybody can hear him. Did the news media make that an
issue? It was mentioned as if en passant (chess term for "in passing")and
never made an issue especially from the do gooder conservatives. If a
Democrat had said that in public can't you imagine how the Conservatives
would be all over it like a snake?

There's the question of Bush dropping Cheney this election time but don't
count on it. It would be so easy for Cheney to bow out using his health
as a reason. His ties to Haliburton are defenitely hurting the Bush
campaign. Or do they??? Who could replace Cheney? If it happened the
two top contenders could be Colin Powell or John McCain. Now politically
that would be a great choice for the Bush camp. I think the only way Bush
would drop Cheney from the ticket would be if Cheney's poll numbers
dropped to an all time non-reversable low. Do Americans really relish
that shifty eyed wicked snear that Cheney always projects?

Oh, since the news media seems so dead set on probing into the lives and
ideas of the contenders family members, why doesn't somebody ask Dick
Cheney's lesbian daughter what she thinks about gay marriage? --



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tribute1969
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Post: # 73053Post tribute1969
Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:13 am

Everyone must get stoned....B Dylan
Everybody in public life is subject to scrutiny,
Some are better liars (and spellers)than others, sorry....
Some rely on just plain, DUMB Luck.....and become President'
Chads.....
I thought Michael Moore WAS President.......
Check out:
"Dude! Where's My Country?" by MM
WAR IS OVER! IF YOU WANT IT!
John and Yoko Ono Lennon-1969
WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT SPIRIT HERE SINCE 1969...
Hotel California

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Post: # 73197Post tardistraveler
Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:09 pm

My friend Doug in DC called me the other night and encouraged me to see Farenheit 9/11 - he was totally impressed with it.

If I see it - I'll post again with my observations.

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Post: # 73239Post Terry Shea
Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:07 pm

psychopomp wrote:
Oh, and I just found the page with Hannity's incorrect quotes!
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=91585
Now obviously this was done by a liberal site (again, one agenda vs. another), but I still found it quite humourous...
What I find quite humerous is that this liberal watchdog site has only been able to come up with 15 quotes over the years that they are disputing. When you're fielding questions on the fly over the air you usually can't take time to check references and sources and must answer based on your memory and recollection of the issue. This group has been able to disect every word of Mr. Hannity's over the years and this is all they've come up with. Amazingly though if you actually analyize what is being said here it's quite apparent that this watchdog group is nothing but a group ofhypocritical two-faced liars. For Instance:

1. WMD

HANNITY: "You're not listening, Susan. You've got to learn something. He had weapons of mass destruction. He promised to disclose them. And he didn't do it. You would have let him go free]. He said things couldn't have been better." (9/19/03)

FACT: "Iraq has come very far, but serious problems remain, starting with security. American commanders and troops told me of the many threats they face--from leftover loyalists who want to return Iraq to the dark days of Saddam, from criminals who were set loose on Iraqi society when Saddam emptied the jails and, increasingly, from outside terrorists who have come to Iraq to open a new front in their campaign against the civilized world." (Colin Powell, 9/19/03)


Obviously, Mr. Hannity is speaking in relative terms here and it's also obvious that this group merely lifted part of Mr. Hannity's statement to suit themselves. Have you ever known Mr. Hannity to respond to anything using only 2 sentences? This is an old liberal trick: lift part of a quote out of context and ignore the rest of what is stated.

3. Saddam/Al-Qaeda Connection

HANNITY: "And in northern Iraq today, this very day, al Qaeda is operating camps there, and they are attacking the Kurds in the north, and this has been well-documented and well chronicled. Now, if you're going to go after al Qaeda in every aspect, and obviously they have the support of Saddam, or we're not." (12/9/02)

FACT: David Kay was on the ground for months investigating the activities of Hussein's regime. He concluded "But we simply did not find any evidence of extensive links with Al Qaeda, or for that matter any real links at all." He called a speech where Cheney made the claim there was a link "evidence free." (Boston Globe, 6/16/04)

Look at the timeline. Mr. Hannity made his statement in late 2002, before the war even began. The Boston Globe article is dated 6/16/04-a full year and a half later. We know Saddam was residing in Baghdad in late 2002, yet we found him many months later in another location. You mean it's possible for people and operations to just get up and move? Gee willikers, I never thought of that. These terrorists must be pretty smart to come up with such a plan. Either that or these liberals...well we won't go ther for the time being.

4. 9/11 Investigation

HANNITY: "[After 9-11], liberal Democrats at first showed little interest in the investigation of the roots of this massive intelligence failure...[Bush and his team] made it clear that determining the causes of America's security failures and finding and remedying its weak points would be central to their mission." (Let Freedom Ring, by Sean Hannity)

TRUTH: Bush Opposed the creation of a special commission to probe the causes of 9/11 for over a year. On 5/23/02 CBS New Reported "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." Bush didn't relent to pressure to create a commission, mostly from those Hannity would consider "liberal" until September 2002. (CBS News, 5/23/02; ABC News, 9/20/02)

Bush did want 9/11 investigated, but he wanted to appoint his own team to investigate. How can you blame him after seeing how liberals twist and lie about almost everything?

5. The Recession

FACT: "The recession officially began in March of 2001 -- two months after Bush was sworn in -- according to the universally acknowledged arbiter of such things, the National Bureau of Economic Research. And the president, at other times, has said so himself." (Washington Post, 7/1/03)

The Washington Post actually made that statement? That's an out and out lie! Every other economic report I've seen states that the recession began in late 2000, while Clinton was still in office. It was a mild recession until the 9/11 catastrophies. Amazingly we've rebounded from this disaster in less than 3 years. The stock market is near the same levels, interest rates have never been lower and the job market is making a come back with many new high paying jobs.

6. The Hispanic Vote

HANNITY: "The Hispanic community got to know him in Texas. They went almost overwhelming for him. He more than quadrupled the Hispanic vote that he got in that state." (9/16/03)

FACT: Exit polls varied in 1998 governors race, but under best scenario he increased his Hispanic vote from 24 to 49 percent – a doubling not a quadrupling. He lost Texas Hispanics to Gore in 2000, 54-43 percent. (Source: NCLR , NHCSL)


It may be that Mr. Hannity misspoke here or didn't have his facts straight, or it may just be another deception by the liberals. I seriously doubt that Mr. Hannity would try to intentionally mislead the audience if the Hispanic vote had doubled and not quadrupled. What would be the purpose of such an exaggeration? Doubling the vote is still quite impressive. Please note though that these liberals have used percentages here and not real numbers. It may well be that the % merely doubled while the actual number of hispanics voting for Bush quadrupled, due to an increase of Hispanics in Texas, an increase in the number of Hispanics being registered and an increase in the number of Hispanics actually getting out to vote. This is another liberal trick: Confuse the reader with percentages instead of using real numbers.

7. White House Vandalism

HANNITY: "Look, we've had these reports, very disturbing reports -- and I have actually spoken to people that have confirmed a lot of the reports -- about the trashing of the White House. Pornographic materials left in the printers. They cut the phone lines. Lewd and crude messages on phone machines. Stripping of anything that was not bolted down on Air Force One. $200,000 in furniture taken out." (1/26/01)

TRUTH: According to statements from the General Services Administration that were reported on May 17, little if anything out of the ordinary occurred during the transition, and "the condition of the real property was consistent with what we would expect to encounter when tenants vacate office space after an extended occupancy." (FAIR)


Once again let's look at the timeline. Mr. Hannity made his statement on 1/26/01-just a few days after the Clinton's departed The White House. Every news agency was reporting that the Clinton's looted The White House. I read it and saw it all over the tv news as I'm sure you did too no doubt. The GSA report came out on May 17, after many of these news reporting agencies backed off from their earlier claims. Mr. Hannity was merely stating what was already being reported at that time. If you want to crucify Mr. Hannity for these statements you'll have to crucify almost every news agency in America (and many abroad) for these statements too.

9. Separation of Church and State

HANNITY: "It doesn't say anywhere in the Constitution this idea of the separation of church and state." (8/25/03)

FACT: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." (1st Amendment)

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." (Article VI)


Read the document for yourself. Nowhere in The Constitution does it state that the church and state have to be seperate, only that CONGRESS can make no law establishing a religion. I haven't seen Congress ever attempt to make such a law but I have seen liberal groups (such as the ACLU) try "prohibit the free exercise thereof". Also please note that The Constitution only addresses Congress here and the powers of The President and The Courts are not clearly defined in this matter.

12. Rent for Public Housing

HANNITY: Betsy, they're not going to lose it [public housing], because if you work less than 30 hours a week -- if you work more than 30 hours a week, you don't have to do it. If you're between the ages of 18 and 62 and you're not legally disabled and you have free housing -- in other words...

BETSY MCCAUGHEY: No. Wait a second, Sean. Let me correct you. Most people in public housing are not receiving free housing. Many of them are paying almost market rates.

HANNITY: Betsy, that is so ridiculous and so false, it's hardly even worth spending the time. (10/23/03)

FACT: Residents of public housing pay rent scaled to their household's anticipated gross annual income, less deductions for dependents and disabilities. The basic formula for rent is 30 percent of this monthly adjusted income. There are exceptions for extremely low incomes, but the minimum rent is $25 per month. No one lives in public housing for free. (Department of Housing and Urban Development)


Well free housing may not have been entirely accurate but I'd say $25 a month is a lot closer to free then it is to market rates. You can't live in an outhouse for $25 a month unless it's subsidized.


What exactly is this groups agenda anyway? To be fair and impartial? I think not!
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Post: # 73245Post psychopomp95
Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:05 pm

Terry Shea wrote:What exactly is this groups agenda anyway? To be fair and impartial? I think not!
Clearly not yours either, Terry...!

Bush wanting to appoint his OWN team to investigate 9/11 reeks of coverup (mind you, it would probably happen anyway)... the idea is to appoint an independent commission, or at least as independent as can be in the U.S.A... As for the other stats, on your own admission, you aren't certain in several areas (what does determine when a recession begins exactly anyway??), or you seem to respond quite vaguely... and if Saddam has those weapons ready to use, how come they haven't been FOUND?? Is it possible that he destroyed them in 2001 or 2002 when the threat of the US invading was very real? (I'm not defending him here, but the gov't insisting he should 'come clean' with them when they might actually have REALLY been destroyed is hilarious!)
Whether or not Hannity wilfully lied, I don't know, but at the least, he bought into the obvious lies (Al Qaeda camps in Iraq? I never heard about this!) which shows that he really doesn't have any 'authority', so to speak, to be a host of a NATIONALLY syndicated radio show..!
And let's be honest here, liberals and conservatives have equal amounts of trickery in how they report things! ;) I've seen so much from both sides that I would never buy into one or the other.

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Post: # 73265Post Terry Shea
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:01 pm

[quote="psychopomp95"]Clearly not yours either, Terry...!

Bush wanting to appoint his OWN team to investigate 9/11 reeks of coverup (mind you, it would probably happen anyway)... the idea is to appoint an independent commission, or at least as independent as can be in the U.S.A... As for the other stats, on your own admission, you aren't certain in several areas (what does determine when a recession begins exactly anyway??), or you seem to respond quite vaguely... and if Saddam has those weapons ready to use, how come they haven't been FOUND?? Is it possible that he destroyed them in 2001 or 2002 when the threat of the US invading was very real? (I'm not defending him here, but the gov't insisting he should 'come clean' with them when they might actually have REALLY been destroyed is hilarious!)
Whether or not Hannity wilfully lied, I don't know, but at the least, he bought into the obvious lies (Al Qaeda camps in Iraq? I never heard about this!) which shows that he really doesn't have any 'authority', so to speak, to be a host of a NATIONALLY syndicated radio show..!
And let's be honest here, liberals and conservatives have equal amounts of trickery in how they report things! ]
My answers may be a little vague, but I have neither the time, the resources nor the desire to take an in depth look at this. These are some things I noticed at first glance. Look at the dates, etc. These type of groups are hellbent on making people look bad. That is their mission and they will fullfill that mission no matter how much they have to lie, misquote or take quotes out of context. A recession is defined as as 2 consecutive quarters where certain economic indicators are down (look it up yourself if you don't believe me). These indicators were down during the last quarter of 2000 and again durung the first quarter of 2001. Clinton was in power until late January 2001. So the majority of those 2 quarters were under his reign. But even if the recession had "officially" begun under Bush's term, there is a lag factor of at least several months for every major economic indicator.

It's quite possible Saddam did hide or destroy the weapons. He should have come clean with the UN inspectors if that's the case instead of holding them up and eventually kicking them out. More later. I've got to leave for work.
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