What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111877Post Roan's Lady
Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:17 am

Terry Shea wrote:I'm sorry Billy, but if you came here looking to express yourself freely you came to the wrong place. If you came here to shed light on a difference of opinion with the powers that be, that is not welcome here. Free speech is not tolerated here unless you happen to have the very same viewpoint as the 2 most militant moderators here (most of the moderators here are actually quite pleasant people, but they're sheep). If you give an opinion contrary to their own, expect to be insulted, slandered, stereotyped and have your threads locked because they're power hungry and cannot tolerate any opinion other than their own. They don't want any discourse, they don't want any reason or logic, they'll just try to silence you anyway they can because they can. Just check out some of the threads in the "Other Skylines" Forum. That should be a real eye-opener for ya. :)
Good lord, Terry.
Most people in a position such as yours, after feeling so frequently disenfranchised on a particular site, would abandon that site in favor of a place which better suits their needs.

If what you post above is an accurate representation of your feelings, what in the world is the draw of Yestalk.org for you?

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111888Post Billy Sherwood HQ
Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:53 pm

Terry Shea wrote:I'm sorry Billy, but if you came here looking to express yourself freely you came to the wrong place. If you came here to shed light on a difference of opinion with the powers that be, that is not welcome here. Free speech is not tolerated here unless you happen to have the very same viewpoint as the 2 most militant moderators here (most of the moderators here are actually quite pleasant people, but they're sheep). If you give an opinion contrary to their own, expect to be insulted, slandered, stereotyped and have your threads locked because they're power hungry and cannot tolerate any opinion other than their own. They don't want any discourse, they don't want any reason or logic, they'll just try to silence you anyway they can because they can. Just check out some of the threads in the "Other Skylines" Forum. That should be a real eye-opener for ya. :)

Thanks for the intel Terry... Interesting reading indeed.

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111891Post N2yes
Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:41 pm

Billy, glad to meet you. I'm Chris ( aka N2YES ), the administrator for this forum though not its proprietor. You have every right to believe as you wish, but Terry is very passionate about his views and tends to go overboard on occasion. These allegations are simply preposterous. If insulting discourse emerges, then I step in for that is pretty much the only thing not tolerated around here. Differences of perspective such as you and Amy experienced were tolerated. However, it was requested by several mods that you two simply carry on via PMs as opposed to broadsiding each other ( albeit without resulting to childish name-calling ). So, again I would like to state that Terry, in light of his strong viewpoints may not be the best source to rely on for "intel". The choice is yours. Thanks for your time in reading this.
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111898Post Billy Sherwood HQ
Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:10 am

N2yes wrote:Billy, glad to meet you. I'm Chris ( aka N2YES ), the administrator for this forum though not its proprietor. You have every right to believe as you wish, but Terry is very passionate about his views and tends to go overboard on occasion. These allegations are simply preposterous. If insulting discourse emerges, then I step in for that is pretty much the only thing not tolerated around here. Differences of perspective such as you and Amy experienced were tolerated. However, it was requested by several mods that you two simply carry on via PMs as opposed to broadsiding each other ( albeit without resulting to childish name-calling ). So, again I would like to state that Terry, in light of his strong viewpoints may not be the best source to rely on for "intel". The choice is yours. Thanks for your time in reading this.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the message...

The problem was not a "difference of perspective" as much as entering a thread here at yestalk to find a MOD and RL using me as a means to further their argument which someone defined as "valid" and I define as "petty gossip". If my name is used in such a manner in a public forum I reply in kind, in public, otherwise the attackers' posts remain and my reply doesn't get the benefit of the same public viewing. I have to provide the context for others to read and make up their own minds.

Perhaps Tardis and RL should have gone PM with their posts to avoid offending a fellow member of over a year and a half now and starting un-needed fires. Or better yet... don't refer to me and my name as an example for an argument. If they can't help themselves, then expect a reply in the same public thread.

If RL had never brought me into the thread directly in the manner she did we wouldn't be having this conversation at all... I've yet to see a MOD or anyone address her for bringing her baggage from YF here to you folks. Instead I'm treated as if I somehow began the war. I've explained my position in several posts on the topic now and rather than responding to questions raised on ethical basis it's brushed off or even spun to appear I only came here to raise cane, far from truthful and simply not cool...

As for Terry, I read the links he provided and replied "interesting reading indeed" I never said I have taken a side. Of course the choice is mine and one shouldn't assume anything for the free thinking person reading said text.

You spoke of him as being "overboard", seems a relative term, personally I think RL went "overboard" but no one is warning me of her. Not that I need any warning, she dogs me on every forum we share residence at. As I said some just have an axe to grind... I can live with it, public or PM's the choice is their's where and when to engage me. Image

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111907Post N2yes
Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:06 pm

Thanks for replying, Billy. Just for the record, I did not wish for you to think that I had in anyway suggested that you agreed with Terry's observation. I just hoped that you would simply judge for yourself. That's all. He can be quite the prolific and interesting poster, but for some reason feels he is being targeted. So much for that. Just wanted to be clear.
We are very glad you're here and please, feel free to add your professional insight into any topic you wish. Amy has assured me that there will be no further verbal jousting here at YEStalk, so knowing her as I do, you can count on that not happening. She is good to her word.
I truly hope you two iron out your differences and to tell you the truth, she has relayed the same to me. In time, I'm reasonably confident this will transpire. For now, please keep posting as we are not linked and therefore we are much appreciative of those who have or have had ( I feel sure you are still good friends with Chris ) dealings with this most phenomenal of bands. You have been an invaluable asset to this site and I personally thank you. As far as this site is concerned, consider the recent past, throw it on the ground and let the rain settle it. Thanks for your time, Billy. Best of the holiday season to ya!
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111935Post tribute1969
Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:25 am

The problem with trying to be get too personal with performers...responsibility

I'd rather just go out and get some bar-b-que too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4CirPSs ... re=related

Let's all just get real...


And it's NOT Cool...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaZGwMa0 ... re=related
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111938Post Roan's Lady
Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:41 am

I have some musical heroes, some whom I've met, and in meeting them, it's sometimes been tough not to feel star-struck - if a musician floors me with his or her music, I do put them on a pedestal - 'cos music matters so much to me, and I am so impressed with a person who can make music that makes me go WOW...BUT - in order to be their friend, a true friend, I'd need to get over that star-struck feeling - doing that only by repeatedly interacting with him/her in real life, about things unrelated to music, where there is both give and take; getting to that "realness" that is the solid basis for what constitutes friendship.
I can't be this kind of friend with anyone whom I only know from seeing them perform, or from what I know of them from the internet. By definition, this kind of friendship is impossible.
It's sometimes very difficult, for musicians and fans alike, to sort through what is genuine and honest and from the heart and what is not. On the other side of the coin, it's so easy to be misconstrued, misunderstood, mishandled, and mistaken, from whichever side of the fence you find yourself.

I think one always takes a risk in imagining that things are real when you don't truly know someone and what makes them tick. It's a problem for the starstruck fan (which has on occasion been me) and it's a problem on the internet. The two in combination can be particularly challenging. Sometimes things are as real as you think, and sometimes...what you think is the deal simply is not. I think it's good to understand that.

I know the above is off-topic, but it's a better off-topic than some posts here...at least I hope so. :)
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111939Post Billy Sherwood HQ
Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:52 am

N2yes wrote:Thanks for replying, Billy. Just for the record, I did not wish for you to think that I had in anyway suggested that you agreed with Terry's observation. I just hoped that you would simply judge for yourself. That's all. He can be quite the prolific and interesting poster, but for some reason feels he is being targeted. So much for that. Just wanted to be clear.
We are very glad you're here and please, feel free to add your professional insight into any topic you wish. Amy has assured me that there will be no further verbal jousting here at YEStalk, so knowing her as I do, you can count on that not happening. She is good to her word.
I truly hope you two iron out your differences and to tell you the truth, she has relayed the same to me. In time, I'm reasonably confident this will transpire. For now, please keep posting as we are not linked and therefore we are much appreciative of those who have or have had ( I feel sure you are still good friends with Chris ) dealings with this most phenomenal of bands. You have been an invaluable asset to this site and I personally thank you. As far as this site is concerned, consider the recent past, throw it on the ground and let the rain settle it. Thanks for your time, Billy. Best of the holiday season to ya!

Thanks Chris,

Best wishes to you and yours for the holidays too.

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111942Post sound_chaser
Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm

Terry Shea wrote: (most of the moderators here are actually quite pleasant people, but they're sheep).
Baaah!

Image

And Humbug.


Image

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111943Post Billy Sherwood HQ
Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:07 pm

For the record... here's some of my thoughts on the topic or off topic as the case may be

Basing an opinion about anyone from their choice of vocation is dangerous no matter what the vocation...
The term "star" is just a label placed upon another human being due to the labeler's perception of an said human being's success and is somewhat condescending to a true musician. Some "stars" are just normal people who have been labeled and put into a box because of what they do and the success they've acheived doing so. It is the responsibility of the viewer as to what they allow their idols to get away with {this is also true about idolizing holymen and authority figures}. Viewing or actually condemning someone to mere star status and not seeing them as a real person is where the danger lies; the responsibility lies in the viewer in this case. Putting anyone on a pedestal gives them too much power which can too easily be abused, this is the viewer's fault as they are the owner of said pedestal. That's not to say there's anything wrong with celebrating what/who stirs your passions {it's part of life's joy}, just a good idea to keep in mind that it's a human being on the other end...

Artists tend to wear their heart on their sleeve. Inspiration comes from the soul. Artist's beliefs are generally easily read by the subject matter of said artist. There is much revealed in a person's creations {through an artist's lyrics, literature, and visual art}... Most artists generally show consistency of subject matter in their creations thus revealing their beliefs often times more than most people tend to do in casual {or even not so casual} conversation and relationships. Negating the ability for a person to be honest or sincere based merely on them being a performer {musician/actor/whatever} is called prejudism. It would be difficult for an artist to portray themselves a certain way for their entire career if there isn't some truth to it.

Wouldn't it be pointless to spend hours upon hours on the internet if internet communication isn't viewed as true interaction in some form? To negate that anything positive or real could come of it would leave one's soul empty when so much time is wasted in this form of communication. It's just another form of interaction and like any interaction in real life, some is real and some is not. It would be sad to dismiss all internet interaction as fake. In fact, some view it as being a bit more "real" because one's words are generally not judged based upon physical appearance. Unfortunately the downside is it allows people to mask their true intent by careful crafted words and their agendas can be covered by claiming it's a "misunderstanding" {this is definitely not limited to whether a person is a performer or not}. What you get from any interaction {internet or real life} is always a direct result of what interaction you choose to put forth yourself.

The internet allows the ability to share ideas with others and not be limited to physicalities such as location. Limiting one's circle of friendship to only those who share your immediate surroundings would also limit one's ability to find a connection and exchange ideas with others who live in other countries and cultures. Seems rather egocentric if one could only care about people you can be face to face with on a daily basis. Friendships should be based on a deeper level that is not held ransom to direct physical contact.

There are a lot of people you think you know for years in real life that turn out to be very different than they've portrayed themselves to be. Disillusionment is not limited to internet contacts or one's idols for that matter. Ask anyone who's gone through a divorce. :cool:

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111959Post Roan's Lady
Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:35 pm

sound_chaser wrote:Baaah!

Image

And Humbug.



Sometimes, sheep can be wolves in sheep's clothing, you know. ;)
hope's as high as the sun today...
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111961Post Roan's Lady
Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:49 am

Some thoughts of mine on Billy's comments. I preface this by saying I IN NO WAY mean for this to be adversarial or negatively provocative. But maybe some food for thought for anyone who cares to consume. :)
Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:For the record... here's some of my thoughts on the topic or off topic as the case may be

Basing an opinion about anyone from their choice of vocation is dangerous no matter what the vocation...
The term "star" is just a label placed upon another human being due to the labeler's perception of an said human being's success and is somewhat condescending to a true musician. Some "stars" are just normal people who have been labeled and put into a box because of what they do and the success they've acheived doing so.
I think all "stars" are normal people; it's just that some are, well - more normal than others. ;)
If by "true" musician, you mean one who excels at his/her craft, less of these are stars, for better or for worse - probably better for most musicians of the "true" variety.
Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:It is the responsibility of the viewer as to what they allow their idols to get away with {this is also true about idolizing holymen and authority figures}. Viewing or actually condemning someone to mere star status and not seeing them as a real person is where the danger lies; the responsibility lies in the viewer in this case. Putting anyone on a pedestal gives them too much power which can too easily be abused, this is the viewer's fault as they are the owner of said pedestal. That's not to say there's anything wrong with celebrating what/who stirs your passions {it's part of life's joy}, just a good idea to keep in mind that it's a human being on the other end...

I'll agree with this, and also add: there's a human being on both ends.

Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:Artists tend to wear their heart on their sleeve. Inspiration comes from the soul. Artist's beliefs are generally easily read by the subject matter of said artist. There is much revealed in a person's creations {through an artist's lyrics, literature, and visual art}... Most artists generally show consistency of subject matter in their creations thus revealing their beliefs often times more than most people tend to do in casual {or even not so casual} conversation and relationships. Negating the ability for a person to be honest or sincere based merely on them being a performer {musician/actor/whatever} is called prejudism. It would be difficult for an artist to portray themselves a certain way for their entire career if there isn't some truth to it.
I think that most artists are true to their art. For that very reason, and for the fact as you said, artists wear their hearts on their sleeves, they tend to be an acutely sensitive bunch, aware to a fault how other people perceive them - or imagine they perceive them.
Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:Wouldn't it be pointless to spend hours upon hours on the internet if internet communication isn't viewed as true interaction in some form? To negate that anything positive or real could come of it would leave one's soul empty when so much time is wasted in this form of communication. It's just another form of interaction and like any interaction in real life, some is real and some is not. It would be sad to dismiss all internet interaction as fake.
And then, there's...the internet. Uh oh...

In my last post up above (#97), I was referring to the people who imagine that most-to-all of internet interaction is real, and it just is not.
Take a person who has difficulty in real-life relationships. She or he can easily gather up many whom they consider "real" friends on the internet. It's safer, it takes less effort, and one can fashion themselves in a very favorable light, making themselves desirable to know. The prospect of never meeting these "friends" irl is in fact the appeal to many, as they can perpetuate whatever they choose to be from the comfort and security that comes from being so physically detached. And ultimately, many of these relationship deteriorate, because what's true about each other simply can't be conveyed over the computer - especially over time. I have seen people raise their expectations of others over the internet just to have them dashed, and sometimes rather unceremoniously. There are exceptions to this, but I think they are rare. Without that face-to-face interaction, hearing tone, seeing body language, something can be said that's taken totally wrong, and what "friendship" was there can in fact dissolve. Whereas in real life, and in real-time (also so important in communication) any conflict has the potential to be resolved so much more easily and quickly.

I also think that there filters are often down online, since you're relatively anonymous and for that exact fact that you're not face to face, it's possible for inhibitions to be let down and not always for the better. One could say it's only honesty when you "tell it like is is", but remember, that is only your "is", and, looking at it from a different angle, would you (or anyone) be quite so "honest" face to face with a person you're upset with? In that "real life", would you lash out at someone with curses, for example, or would you be a bit more moderate in your approach, and not only allow them to explain themselves, but "hear" them, too?

Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:In fact, some view it as being a bit more "real" because one's words are generally not judged based upon physical appearance. Unfortunately the downside is it allows people to mask their true intent by careful crafted words and their agendas can be covered by claiming it's a "misunderstanding" {this is definitely not limited to whether a person is a performer or not}.
But how can you be sure that it's not a misunderstanding?

Words typed on a screen can give us a fair amount of insight into each other, but they are limiting - because they are just written words with no life; no nuance that can be injected into them by a speaker. No problem between people on the 'net is most ideally served by continuing to type at each other - and more often than not with time lags of hours or even days. And what if you happen not to be an eloquent writer?

Then you're sunk out here.

In my opinion, to develop and maintain an honest relationship, you simply need flesh and blood. It's only natural.
Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:What you get from any interaction {internet or real life} is always a direct result of what interaction you choose to put forth yourself.
As long as it's understood between both parties what the intent is of that interaction which each other "puts forth". Perception is everything - and our perceptions are based on experiences that often the other party has no idea about. Not the other party's "fault", but if you have little understanding of a person at the outset of your relationship, then your perception of them might not always be on the mark. How do you get that understanding? Gosh, have a beer with them every coupla weeks. Or if you can't do that, at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they might not be flinging personal insults at you, even when you think they are. Read what they have to say on other topics. "Talk" to them in a way that shows you want to understand them.

Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:The internet allows the ability to share ideas with others and not be limited to physicalities such as location. Limiting one's circle of friendship to only those who share your immediate surroundings would also limit one's ability to find a connection and exchange ideas with others who live in other countries and cultures. Seems rather egocentric if one could only care about people you can be face to face with on a daily basis. Friendships should be based on a deeper level that is not held ransom to direct physical contact.
You certainly can have great relationships with people you only know on the 'net; you can care about them and celebrate things with them and support each other via online communication - no doubt. And of course it's great to connect with people all over the world - but-
in my opinion, there's simply no way those relationships can bring the complete satisfaction and fulfullment that a face-to-face, enmeshed-in-each-other's lives friendship can - and does.

Billy Sherwood HQ wrote:There are a lot of people you think you know for years in real life that turn out to be very different than they've portrayed themselves to be. Disillusionment is not limited to internet contacts or one's idols for that matter. Ask anyone who's gone through a divorce. :cool:
True, but generally it takes years to realize that you're married to the wrong person; and along with that, the developing
of insight that can't possibly be garnered from a handful of internet-only conversations. :)

Billy, you seem a thoughtful individual. It's nice to see, and it matters more than my agreeing with all of your thoughts. That's not necessary. Thanks for sharing out here what are clearly some things very close to you.

Hopefully, you and I can put the bad things behind us and start afresh.
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111962Post yesireebob
Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:38 am

I really appreciate both Amy and Billy's posts. Good points made in both. The internet is still a relatively new medium and has grown so rapidly that protocol is lagging behind that expansion. I agree with Billy that the internet has greatly expanded our friendship horizons. We now we have instant access to anyone nearly anywhere in the world. And most significantly, we can connect with people who share passions that not many in our immediate environment may share. Like Yes. I have been a Yes fan since 1972, but until the internet I had no idea how many others felt the same way. It still amazes me that in the comfort of my own home I can have discussion like this with such a large, diverse group of people. I have met many in person at assorted concerts and gatherings, and a few are really good friends that I correspond with regularly and cannot imagine not having in my life. And, my son fell in love with a girl from Australia on MySpace, and is actually now in Australia living with her. The jury is still out on that, but hey, at least I can stay in touch with him on the internet.

But there is a down side. Amy is right in saying that you don't always really know who you are dealing with. You do not have the benefit of facial expressions, body language, or any real context for another person's life. Aside from misunderstandings, mistakes, and perhaps a little too much presumption straining internet friendships, there are really perilous scams and personal dangers accompanying too much blind faith in internet friends. I do not post my entire name, specific physical location, place of employment, or other such identifying information in any public forums because you just don't know who's looking or what their agenda may be. Perhaps a little paranoia is an occupational hazard. And I rarely even state my occupation, because, as Billy noted, people do tend to base opinions about each other based on choice of occupation. So, the quandary becomes, bare your soul to people you really don't know, who will never see the real you or grasp what you are trying to say, or limit your interaction to very surface chatter. It can be a tough balance. You also have to throw in factors like some people are actual band members with all the baggage that carries, and some are mods who have to be especially careful to not appear to favor any one person or opinion over another, and just try and keep the peace.

As for the whole star thing, I do understand what Amy is saying about the difficulty in trying to separate admiration for someone's talent from really getting to know them apart from that. For example, I have long been a fan of Woody Allen's work. I am always surprised at how many people comment that they WON'T see any of his films because, you know, the whole Mia thing. Granted, marrying one's stepchild is a little off-putting. But in the end, I don't really care about his personal life or ponder whether I would like him on a personal level. His work stands apart from any of that, and I will always respect him as an artist. His personal life is just not my concern. If I DID get to know him, would it make a difference? Don't know and probably will never find out. There is always so much more to a person than their public persona and the perceptions of fans and critics. I do appreciate Billy's candor in expressing how it feels from his end. Of course, there is ALWAYS a real person on the other end. It would behoove us all to consider that more often.

Getting back to the topic, what does YF have that YT does not, I guess I am just more comfortable in a smaller forum that is more of a known quantity, where you really can get to know a few people over a long period of time. It just feels more personal to me, less fraught with stranger danger on many levels.

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111981Post tribute1969
Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:39 am

You mean we're not all robots and androids?! Darn!
Oh, that was my first wife...anyway....

Facial expressions, body language work for me too, being a professional
recruiter, counselor, concierge, customer service person...I rely on them.
Emails,postings and chat rooms are a little like Russian Roulette sometimes..
It is amazing how some things get turned around and taken the wrong way(s)

Over all, it is great to find others with common interests and common disagreements to respectfully discuss from all over the world....
WAR IS OVER! IF YOU WANT IT!
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111990Post sound_chaser
Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:04 am

I think it's a good job we don't have any stars visit here at Yestalk: it would only spoil the vibe.

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 111998Post Greenglade's Frog
Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:13 pm

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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 112006Post Roan's Lady
Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:29 am

tribute1969 wrote:You mean we're not all robots and androids?! Darn!
Oh, that was my first wife...anyway....

Facial expressions, body language work for me too, being a professional
recruiter, counselor, concierge, customer service person...I rely on them.
Emails,postings and chat rooms are a little like Russian Roulette sometimes..
It is amazing how some things get turned around and taken the wrong way(s)

Over all, it is great to find others with common interests and common disagreements to respectfully discuss from all over the world....

I completely don't mind disagreeing with someone and I don't look to avoid conflict - on or offline. Conflict is part of life and besides, I like my neurons a-firin'. If that means me - or the other party - shaking things up a little without being personally insulting, so be it, and bring it on.
sound_chaser wrote:I think it's a good job we don't have any stars visit here at Yestalk: it would only spoil the vibe.
Well, that all depends on who the star is. ;)
hope's as high as the sun today...
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tribute1969
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Re: What's Yesfans got that Yestalk doesn't?

Post: # 112010Post tribute1969
Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:26 am

I like my neurons a-firin'
Good name for a new YES tune...
I want to be on YOUR side if I'm ever involved in conflict... ;)

Roan's Lady wrote:I completely don't mind disagreeing with someone and I don't look to avoid conflict - on or offline. Conflict is part of life and besides, I like my neurons a-firin'. If that means me - or the other party - shaking things up a little without being personally insulting, so be it, and bring it on.



Well, that all depends on who the star is. ;)
WAR IS OVER! IF YOU WANT IT!
John and Yoko Ono Lennon-1969
WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT SPIRIT HERE SINCE 1969...
Hotel California

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